Martyn Wilson - 'The State Of No Thought'
Interview by Iain McNay
Iain: Hello and welcome again to Conscious TV. My name is Iain McNay, and my guest today is Martyn Wilson. Martyn, who like many people who we end up interviewing on Conscious TV, sent us a book, and his book is entitled ‘Enlightenment - The keys to Consciousness”. We get lots of books with enlightened in the title, but the thing I liked about it was it said ‘Experienced and written by Martin Wilson’. The word experienced I like, because it's not like a textbook, it's not talking about something - it’s essentially based on his own experience. And that, at Conscious TV, is what we try for and have at the core of all our programs, is someone's experience and what they learn, what came out of that and how that changed their view on life and their take on reality. So we're going to talk about the book obviously, and maybe beyond that as well. So Martin in the notes that you sent me, you talked about, in your early years or early working years, you went from one dead-end job to another.
Martyn: Yes and that was mainly seeking the next car, the next house, the next big thing. I found that every job that I went to was going to be the next big breakthrough. That was going to be the big push through forward - that was going to change my life completely. And of course, it was one disappointment after another, and I never quite got there. This is just a pattern that repeated and repeated, until probably three years ago or four years ago.
Iain: Were you reasonably happy as a child? Do you remember?
Martyn: Do you know, I had a very happy childhood and I can't say that I didn’t. So I haven't had most of the - you have alot of people that have found enlightenment, that they have had very very difficult childhoods - and I can't say that. I did grow up in a working-class family, and we grew up relatively in poverty. But as a child, I didn't know that and I was not made aware of that fact. So very happy.
Iain: And then in 2002 you became a single parent?
Iain: Bringing up three children on your own. That was a bit of a handful wasn't it?
Martyn: That was a big shock. I was actually living in Spain at the time and my first wife left me. We won't go into that, but obviously left me and left me with three young children. So I was quite lost and didn't know what to do. I'd always worked, so I'd never really been hands-on with the children. And to suddenly be handed three children and told to get on with it… And I felt at that time that I didn't even know them. I didn't even know who they were. So that was a massive massive shock and of course, the move back to England as a single parent…
Iain: So when you say didn't know them, what do you mean by that?
Martyn: I think it’s because I'd go out to work early in the morning, I'd come in late at night. And by the time I got home, the children were in bed. I was never there to play with them. I was never there to feed them and all of a sudden I was handed the responsibility of doing all of those things. I had never had to get the children ready for school before so I didn't really know how all that worked. It was a very very strange situation but something that I adapted to very quickly and I can look back now that was a blessing. That was an absolute blessing. It's brought me closer to them.
Iain: Yeah it must have been. And then you met somebody else, Maria.
Martyn: I did. I’d actually known Maria for a lot of years. Before we moved out to Spain, Maria and myself worked on the school PTA together. And so we'd known each other for a long time. And of course when I moved back to England with the children, and back to the school, I went straight back into the PTA. And there was Maria, and I think Maria and I had always had some sort of a connection - a friendship before I'd even left. So we rekindled that and just discovered that actually, we had quite a lot in common. So we were moving in the right direction. She was a single parent with a daughter, so we did the Brady Bunch thing - we got together. My three boys and Maria's daughter, and then the six of us still all live happily ever after. They're still not making the right noises of leaving home, but it's great.
Iain: So Maria introduced you to something called Spiritual Enlightenment. And to start with, you wasn’t too impressed by it.
Martyn: Well I wasn't impressed in the slightest. I didn't believe in it.
Iain: But why, why was that?
Martyn: I think because I’d been brought up in a family where religion and spirituality and things like that were never even talked about. I was never told that it was right or wrong, but it was just never discussed. So it was never a part of my my world, my existence. And for someone to come in and suddenly start telling me that there's this thing called enlightenment and awareness and consciousness, and all these words I'd never heard of before… Of course from whether it's an ego point of view, I don't know what it was, I just I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it at all.
Iain: But were you reasonably happy in your life at that time after you met Maria?
Martyn: I think I thought I was happy, which I think is a different matter. But again, I was going from one job to another. I didn’t - we didn't have money. We struggled to pay the bills. We lived from one paycheck to the next, and even though home life was fantastic - we enjoyed life. But we weren’t really enjoying life. We were just suffering life. We were just working to pay bills.
Iain: Getting by.
Martyn: Barely, barely getting by.
Iain: So, anyway that was a fact, she was interested in the whole consciousness thing and I presume she had done workshops and introduced you to books and whatever. And you were saying, you’re not interested, that its a lot of rubbish, is that right?
Martyn: I’d say absolute rubbish. And of course, she would bring home books, and she would tell me about seminars. And of course, every time - I’m not a very highly educated person and Maria would come back and tell me about all these new concepts. And the more she learnt, the dafter I felt. I felt that she was just pulling away from me. And and of course, from my point of view, these people were brainwashing her. I'd never actually got myself to listen to any of these people and I'd never read any of the books. I'm only listening to Maria's version of it but of course, I was losing it. I thought she was being brainwashed and taken away from me. So I set out on my mission to disprove it all. To disprove that enlightenment never existed.
Iain: So what you wanted to show her, was that what she discovered and was learning about, and was excited about, was fraudulent in a way?
Martyn: Yeah. Absolutely.
Iain: Okay so how did you start?
Martyn: It was strange because she dragged me alot - I say dragged - I went kicking and screaming - to a three day seminar. I sat there for three days with my arms folded and looking around, and everyone (it was about 200 people in the room) everyone in the room were what I called hippies at the time. They're all wearing tie-dye dresses and sitting there and chanting and all sorts of things. I sat it out for three days like that (Martyn folds his arms) my lip poked out and just never believed a word.
Iain: You must have stood out a bit didn't you?
Martyn: Massively, massively and we had - I had arguments with people there. The guy that was running the seminar, I called him charlatan. I just didn’t believe it. And of course as soon as I got home from that seminar I googled everything I could about this guy to try and disprove it, and tried everything I could to disprove it. You can imagine the the friction that caused in the relationship with Maria because she wanted me to see what she was seeing. I just wanted her to see my point of view. And from me that was a very big… I had a very big ego. I wasn't having it any other way. I argued and argued and argued until I got to the point where I realised that arguing wasn't the way forward. The only way forward, was to actually show her that this was not real. That I had to disprove it completely. So I researched. I looked into people and I looked at every meditation and every technique, and I tried all sorts of things. And while I was on my mission to disprove it, something sort of crept up on me. It's almost as if something crept up on me while I was looking in the other direction. I suddenly started to get it. I understood it. And you can imagine that was a very difficult time for me then, because the conflict was no longer with Maria. It was now with me.
Iain: Okay, so when you say you started to get it, what do you mean by that?
Martyn: I tried various techniques and meditation. I have to admit, meditation does nothing for me at all, and I'm not poo pooing meditation, I'm just saying that it's not me. I tried various mindfulness techniques that I'd seen on the Internet and again, it didn't work for me. Until one day I came across a technique which I laughed at when I first read it, and I tried it and for a brief second I just had that stillness in my mind that I never experienced before. And of course once I had a glimpse of that, I thought I need to do this again. I need to just make sure that that was it. I stuck with that one technique and I'd never had a teacher. I've never had a guru, I've never you know, I've never done any of those things. So this is all on you and it's very simple but as I practiced the technique more and more, I found that the silence… The freedom from that internal dialect in my mind that I’d had for years and years, that just got longer and longer. The peace, the silence, just got longer and longer.
Iain: So that would mean in practical terms, you had less thoughts? Or there was more space between the thoughts?
Martyn: Yes and of course, it was a very difficult time for me, because I was there trying to disprove that this was even possible. And the evidence was going the other way.
Iain: You wasn’t doing too well were you.
Martyn: I wasn't doing very well at all. And and I think the amazing thing is, when you listen to teachers and gurus and and all of these people that have had experiences, the one thing they've all got in common is they went out on a journey to go and find enlightenment. And I was looking in the other direction trying to prove that infact it wasn’t real. I failed miserably.
Iain: But what was going on with you, okay you started to find this silence, what was going on with you kind of emotionally and mentally about that?
Martyn: I had internal conflict because obviously one wife had left me. I now had Maria who was to me, she was my everything. And now she, to me it seemed that she was being taken away. She was gone, so inside I'd almost come to an acceptance that I'd lost her. That that she was going. We'd not discussed this we hadn't had arguments or anything like that but I'd lost her she was gone. So again inside I was torn apart. And not just for myself but also for the children. Even though Maria’s not the mother of the three boys, she's become that and everything else you know, so to suddenly have to again explain to the children you've now lost Maria - the conflict inside was was massive. Absolutely massive.
Iain: Once you started to have this discovery let's say, how did that change your relationship with Maria?
Martyn: To start with it was it was very difficult because there was this thing that Maria has been searching for, for years and years, and now I'd seen it and so the conflict changed, from the conflict of thinking I was going to lose Maria - the conflict changed to how do I now tell her that I've seen something that you’re looking for.
Iain: But how did you know that she hadn't seen it?
Martyn: Just through the conversations that we'd had.
Iain: Okay so you already discovered something she hadn’t discovered or experienced something she hadn’t yet experienced. Okay.
Martyn: Again internally, I knew that to even explain that - that we had a lot of arguments to come, a lot of friction.
Iain: Tell us about that a little bit.
Martyn: I needed to prove to myself that this was real, before I could sit down with Maria. So I think from Maria’s point of view by the time we had that conversation, it must have looked as if I'd clicked my fingers and just found this thing. And what she hadn't seen is that for months and months on end, I'd been practicing this mindfulness technique and I've been, you know, doing all of this research and whatever. So when we finally sat down and I said to Maria ‘I’ve really got to tell you about this’ we then changed roles and Maria didn’t believe me. So we completely swapped positions. And of course, Maria had put enlightenment (I don’t know if you like that word enlightenment) she'd put that word on a pedestal and made it into something magnificent. Something magical. And of course my explanation was very very simple. And I’m not saying that was enlightenment at that time, this was just mindfulness. But of course to explain that to Maria… Maria had a completely different view on it. So that caused a lot of friction because now she was saying ‘well I don’t believe what you're saying. How can that have happened to you when all you've done is sit at home’. And that's what she saw. Where as of course she was the one with all of the knowledge in all of the seminars and the books…
Iain: Actually will bring her as she's sitting next door, we’ll bring her through later and she can give her take on how it was for her. That would be interesting. So what was the next stage for you then? So you had this, you'd found some silence, you had the gap between the thoughts. How did that progress?
Martyn: Again I carried on with the technique which I know we’re going to talk about later on. I carried on with this mindfulness technique until those moments of silence, got longer and longer. Something that started to creep in, is when those thought processes did come back in again, they came back with a vengeance. I was then experiencing massive lows. I'm not the sort of person that’s experienced anxiety or depression or anything like that. I've never had that experience. I’ve always been quite a happy go lucky type of person. But all of a sudden I was having these massive lows and they didn't last very long maybe a day or so. But while that was going on, that technique didn’t work for me. I couldn't get back to mindfulness again. So I pretty much had to just let it pass. I had to let it play out and then get back to the technique, and then the moments of silence would would carry on. Until a point where they got longer longer and longer and I can actually remember the moment looking back and thinking I can't actually remember the last time I used that technique and I just had that silence.
Iain: Okay so you’re going to do a little kind of meditation technique after it’s explanation, after the program. But just give us the outline of the technique without going into the full detail of it, of how it works.
Martyn: Rather than with other mindfulness techniques where you try to block out thoughts completely, and then put a stop to them completely, this technique is more about allowing the thoughts to flow, allowing them and observing them. So not trying to make sense of them but just allowing them to flow and observing. I found that once I became aware of those uncontrolled thoughts, once you can actually recognise them for what they are, they just melt away. They dissolve. But again, I don't want give too much away because obviously we're going to look at this at the end.
Iain: But on the other hand, when you say uncontrolled thoughts, not everyone will necessarily know what we mean by uncontrolled thoughts. So what's a controlled thought and what's an uncontrolled thought?
Martyn: I did hear someone once say that there's a difference between thinking… Thinking what you want to think, and being thunked, which i thought was a fantastic word. And i can’t remember who said that. So an uncontrolled thought are those thoughts that are like the internal dialogue in your head, and those thoughts that come in without any control on your part. They just come in and I used to be inundated with those. I'd lie awake at night time, I couldn’t sleep.
Iain: Whats an example of one?
Martyn: Just fears more than anything.
Iain: So what we might call negative thoughts.
Martyn: I think negative thoughts. Yeah I mean not just fear of something that might happen in the future, but also reliving the past. You know, there's nothing we can do about the past. But I would lie awake just worrying about things I’d done in the past. And yet I couldn't change them. There was nothing I could do about it, but that would keep me awake.
Iain: So for you, an uncontrolled thought is something that you'd classify as something unhelpful, maybe negative, as you say, either related to the past - something that happened, or something that may happen in the future. Now what about a thought that comes in on a random basis which is actually helpful? A thought which is reminding you haven’t done something that you wanted to do, or something that's an idea of something you could do. Like you know, to give you a nice example, you’ve got to buy a present for Maria for her birthday or something, and suddenly you get an idea for the present. Now is that an uncontrolled thought or a controlled thought?
Martyn: See I would say it was a controlled thought.
Iain: And even though you weren't actually trying to remember at the time, well I must think of something good for Maria as a present?
Martyn: I must say that my short-term memory has become absolutely atrocious, and I wake up in the morning now and I will sit down and consciously write down everything I need to do that day. So that's why I call it a controlled thought. I wouldn’t lie in bed and suddenly think ‘oh I must do that’. It doesn't work like that. So I write lots of lists and and as I say, I'd write a list down and that's when I would put down, buy Maria a present.
Iain: And the main result of this, this work you've done and removing the uncontrolled thoughts, is that you… Describe how that is in your life, how you feel about that and how it affects you.
Martyn: How it affects me, I would say not negatively but I would say my short-term memory is pretty much gone, and if Maria wasn't there I'm not sure that I’d get dressed in the morning. It really does get that bad at times. My long-term memory I would say, it's fantastic and I'm remembering things from my childhood that I'd forgotten existed.
Iain: I'm meaning that your presuming you're happier?
Martyn: I’m really really happy. I think the great thing is, I've now got nothing to remember, I've got nothing to forget, and I've got nothing to regret. There's a song in there somewhere! But it’s just peaceful and it's quite interesting when people ask me about being in a bliss state. You know, ‘are you in a bliss state’? And I think I probably was very early on but you can’t walk around blissed-out and seeing rainbows all day, It doesn't work that way. And it becomes a part of who you are. It becomes normal very very quickly, to the point where I just see it as being part of everyday life now. It's just normal. It is not something to be put up on a pedestal or to be worshipped. It is very very simple.
Iain: I know from things you said in your book that to start with, when you noticed these changes, you struggled with certain things like bright lights, bright colours, loud music etc.
Martyn: There were odd phases to go through. The way I could I would explain it is, when I was what I call, in the ego, when I was in this massive ego and had these uncontrolled thoughts coming in, there a massive distraction to what’s actually going on in the moment. I’d never really taken time to notice colours, and sounds, and things like that. Then all of a sudden with the uncontrolled thoughts gone, all of these things were there in the moment to see and hear and experience. I just weren't really used to them. It didn't last for very long, I got over it very very quickly. And again, those things became part of everyday life.
Iain: And then you describe moving more into what you call the heart centre.
Martyn: That was a massive shift for me, and I know in the book I talk about the mindfulness and I think a lot of people assume that once you're free from uncontrolled thought, you’re enlightened. That's it. And I asked the same question. I realised very quickly that by asking that question, that I couldn't be there. There was no way I was there. And so the next phase was - I then started questioning all of the beliefs and opinions. You know, the programming that I had growing up. And the way I got over that really, (it was every belief and opinion I had) I questioned, can I prove or disprove what I'm saying? And if I can't prove or disprove it, then let's throw it away. Let's get rid of it. That's gone. And so that was the point. Once I’d mastered just dropping those beliefs in opinions. you know just just throwing them away, that's when I moved what I would say, into the heart centre. The only way I can explain that, is this sort of massive energy that I felt there. There were times when I would put Maria's hand on my chest and say to her you must be able to feel that because it feels like I'm just radiating energy out . And of course she would say, well I can't feel anything. But again that became very normal, very quickly. I can’t actually say to you now that I can feel that radiating out of me anymore. That’s just that part of who I am now. That's a part of everyday life.
Iain: At the time you felt that by questioning your belief system and your attitudes towards things, that helped to open your heart area?
Martyn: I know that I’ve seen YouTube videos and read stories from from other people, when they talk about a Universal love, you know, a Universal love for all things. I personally wouldn't use those words. I wouldn't use the word love. The word I would use, would be acceptance. And I think it really is as black and white as that. Either you accept something, or you don’t. And I started to find that moving into the heart centre, just allowed me to accept everything. It allowed - that doesn't mean I had to like it or dislike it - it just means I accepted everything as it was without trying to fight against it. Without trying to change it. So that’s what it meant to me.
Iain: Was that difficult for you to do that?
Martyn: The mindfulness helped to get to that, and I don't think I could have done that without being free of the uncontrolled thoughts. I can't say it was difficult but again, it was another really, really ,time-consuming exercise, and to realise that for anyone to question their own beliefs and opinions, I think it's quite a difficult thing anyway. Because we're so programmed, we're so conditioned and we assumed that because we were brought up with that, or we might have read something a newspaper or seen it on the TV, then it must be true. But of course when you question ‘can I prove or disprove it’? If you can’t, then it's not worth keeping anymore. You just need to let go of it. ;
Iain: You put a lot of time into this didn't you. You made it a real priority in your life.
Iain: What was the motivating force that kept you going with that do you think?
Iain: How interesting.
Martyn: That was it.
Iain: So when you say her, do you mean you didn't want her to leave or you? Were doing it to try to help her?
Martyn: That was the thought I think originally. The thought of losing Maria was unbearable. But of course once I discovered something, and I'd seen this thing that she was looking for. Of course that shifted because I now wanted to share that. I'd found this thing that Maria had been looking for and I just wanted to move heaven and earth now to make sure that I could share that with Maria. That was the biggest motivator, definitely.
Iain: She was lucky wasn't she.
Martyn: I'm not sure which one of us is lucky actually, I'm not sure. I'm not sure that I'd be where I am, without Maria. And I’m not sure that she would be where she is, without me. So I think that's worked really well.
Iain: One of the things you've said in the book which I liked, (I put in capitals in my notes), was ‘silence is something you can hear, if you allow yourself to listen’
Iain: Talk more about that.
Martyn: It’s quite interesting because I always thought silence was peace and quiet. I can't actually tell you now a place that I found yet, where I found real silence. Because even quiet is not silence, there's just noise everywhere. It never ever stops. And that's not a problem. This is just now observing what's out there. I’ve never seen or heard any of this before, so if you allow yourself…Silence is something that I don’t think is real anymore. I think at the time I wrote the book and I was looking for silence, I don't think there actually is a silence anymore. There's a silence within, definitely. And that's more what I was aiming at with the book. But of course, when people talk about silence, they talk about the world out there. They’re talking about silence outside.
Iain: How would you describe the silence within?
Martyn: Interestingly, I was once asked if this experience - if this silence within - was as if someone had just switched the light on. You know, did someone just switch a light on and that was it, you've got it? I said actually, it's as if someone just turned the light off. That's how it felt. All of a sudden, all of these fears and emotions and uncontrolled thoughts and everything, is like someone had just turned everything off and it was just peace. Absolute peace. So that's how I would describe it.
Iain: A relief.
Martyn: An absolute relief. Yes definitely.
Iain: Something that so many people want. They want a relief from all this, the negative thoughts they have, and the worries and anxieties and depression sometimes.
Martyn: I think again, it's quite interesting because as I say, with the mindfulness I questioned, is this it? Is this the end game? And I knew by questioning that it couldn't possibly be. And then of course the next stage was the letting go of the beliefs and opinions. Once I'd managed to drop those, I asked the question again, is this it? But I'd ask the question again and I knew it couldn't be. I know alot of people talk about surrender. This absolute surrender. And I question again, is this the end game? I'm actually at the point now where I don't actually believe there is an end game. I don't believe the end exists. I think there's always an experience, a deepening to be had, and no matter how enlightened or how awakened someone is, I think there’s always another experience. I think Maria explained this absolutely beautifully when she said ‘surrender is like stepping off of a cliff. But there's no bottom, you just keep on falling and you keep on falling and you keep on falling’.
Iain: Okay so what in practical terms, does surrender mean to you?
Martyn: Surrender to me, was everything sort of rolled into one. It was that deepening. So the mindfulness and the letting go of beliefs and opinions, that was something I had complete control over. Whereas the surrender was something that came. That just happened. And that was just a total acceptance. I think is that the word I would use. A total acceptance of everything, just the way it is. Without fighting against it. I know people have questioned me and they said ‘well how can you accept murderers and rapists’? I'm not saying I like it or disagree with it. I'm just saying I accept everything the way it is. It's happened. There's nothing I can do to change it I accept it, And that's it. That's the surrender. That's the complete and utter. Just acceptance of everything. Of all possibilities. Of other people's beliefs and opinions.
Iain: When you say that its something that happened, that surrender, once it happened, did it require a support and effort from you? Or did it just happen?
Martyn: it just happened. I really don't believe I had any say in that. There was no work to be done on it. There was nothing I could do to control it. That just flowed. It absolutely just flowed.
Iain: From what I understand, once you've got a certain momentum going and the momentum was built up by really hard work, because you did your mindfulness practice pretty much all your waking or your waking day. And then you did this looking at your desires and patterns and things, so you you put the work in. And then the surrender came more automatically, so there was a momentum, that had its own direction if you like.
Iain: It had its own oomph behind it. Then there was a fourth stage wasn't there. What the fourth stage?
Martyn: Well the fourth stage was of just being.
Iain: Well you've got down here, and this is from your book, maybe you remember different now? The fourth stage is… Your right, simply being. ’In this final stage there is no observer, it has dissolved leaving no trace behind’.
Martyn: Do you know what's really amazing is, I wrote in the book, this final stage. If you actually read the book a little bit further, on I added another one to it. Because again I'd questioned, is this it? Is this the end game? And it wasn’t. I mean the book was two years in the making, so there was a lot of time in-between chapters. And of course, I’d written in the book that this final stage. And then later on I realised actually, this is not. There's not a final stage there's more to add to it. But reading back, I didn't want to take that out. I wanted people to realise that at that point, that's the realisation I was at that time. That this was a final stage.
Iain: But you see that actually for me, that is quite a huge thing. Because it seems that then you made a transformation, or let's say a transformation happened, in the vicinity of Martin. Where from doing the practice, making effort we've talked about, then the observer, to take your words, ‘the observer dissolved leaving no trace behind’. So that, from what I understand, is really the dissolving of a major part of the I, (of the individual Martyn) because the observer is not looking at what you’re doing. Yhe observer is collapsing into being, and then you become more, just an expression of the oneness - if I'm not being too out there with my terminology.
Martyn: And of course, being as I wasn't sort of educated, I didn't have a teacher, these are all things that were really alien to me. All I could do was experience them. As you said at the beginning on the front of the book, it says written in experience by Martin Wilson. Because I needed people to understand that I didn't learn this from a book. I didn't learn this from a teacher or guru. I did it sort of cold turkey if you like. I had to experience all of these things. And that was it. I only have one track and I often think that when people go out and they read lots of books, they watch lots of DVDs and seminars and things like that, from my point of view they're just putting more and more layers onto themselves that they've later on got to let go of. They've got to release. I think I was very very lucky that I didn't actually have that.
Iain: I'd like to spend a little bit more time with this as well. It is such a key thing. A lot of people on the spiritual journey kind of understand to a degree, but they don't necessarily have the feel of, the taste of, in their own experience. So when this happened, did you notice this suddenly or was this a gradual process, that you felt the observer disappear?
Martyn: This was a gradual process, and it had taken quite some time as well. I think even with the mindfulness, I mean if you'd have asked me who are you, I would have said to you ‘I'm Martyn Wilson, I'm a father of three children, I’m a school caretaker’, I'd have said all of these things but of course when it come to that point I then questioned myself well Who am I really? I'm not Martyn Wilson that was a label that was given to me. I'm not a school caretaker, that's a job that I do. I'm not a father of three children that's just something else I did. I'm not any of those things. So what am I? When you question and you look inwards and you suddenly realised that….There’s a wonderful guy, Jeff Lieberman I don’t know if you heard of this guy?
Iain: I’ve heard of him.
Martyn: Jeff Lieberman once said that when you ask yourself who you are, what you really are is a collection of a thousand trillion trillion atoms made up of pure energy moving at the speed of light and you're the age of the universe. And when you look at that and think wow, that sounds so much better than Martyn Wilson. That's a lot cooler than just being Martyn Wilson. When you look inwards, I am pure energy. I am moving at the speed of light. I'm made of the same stuff as everything around me. and So this oneness, makes perfect sense. I think that it is that sense, that dissolving of the observer is exactly that.
Iain: And what happens to your humanness when that happens?
Martyn: Humanness… It's a difficult one because I struggled. I really really struggled. I reached the end of the book and got it published, and then a new experience came up. And that was this difficulty, with actually integrating with other people. I found that really difficult. In your notes there is a quote in the book that says ‘the most difficult thing about my awakening or my enlightenment, was realising that everyone else was still asleep and I just want to shake people, I just want to wake him up and I can’t. There’s no way of doing that’. To a certain degree I wouldn't say I'm suffering it, but I still find it very very difficult integrating with other people.
Iain: Do you feel at all there's any kind of conflict between your human needs and desires, which is still there, and this knowingness that you are this expression of the whole?
Martyn: There's no conflict, there’s absolutely no conflict at all. Again, when I say it's a difficulty or I had difficulty integrating,I don’t have a difficulty at all. The difficultly is on the side of everyone else. I've got no conflict or nothing. But then again, I have no desire to mix with other people, I have no need or want to mix with other people and I come to this realisation that when I ridiculed these people that go and sit on top of a mountain and meditate for years on end - and yet I can't think of anything better now than actually sitting on top of a mountainside without all of these people. Without all of these egos and that around me. So I’ve sort of again - it’s that complete acceptance of these people that want that escape now. I can actually see that now.
Iain: You also talk about, (towards the end of the book), about a fifth stage when your enthusiasm came back.
Martyn: Yes that was great because for a long time, when you said the enthusiasm came back, I lost…I think I lost all drive, all need, all want for anything. I had no ambition to actually do anything at all. And I know a lot of people might look at that and say well that's a problem. You're actually suffering by doing that. But I wasn’t. I was just being in that sort of being state and not needing or wanting to do anything. But of course that next stage that came up, I suddenly found that, not a want or desire, but I actually started enjoying things again. Not people so much. But just hobbies and you know, going places and things like that. I just started to enjoy again. And that was the the fifth stage of the being happy, which if you're not happy then I'm not sure what life is about. I'm not sure what life experience is about if you can’t experience happiness.
Iain: That's at the end of the book. You do have a little summary of the keys to consciousness. If we can give away the secret ending…. ‘Observe your thoughts’, which you did through meditation. Theres a little section on that later to explain in more detail on that. ‘Question your beliefs and opinions’ which you did. ‘Surrender to all there is’ which seemed to happen more automatically for you, it wasn't your doing, it just happened. ‘Just be’, and the ‘Be happy’. It doesn't sound like a bad ending does it, be happy?
Martyn: Absolutely, what else is there? What else is there.
Iain: Be happy. Well we’ve still got a little bit of time left so why don't we not forget the be happy and bring on Maria now, because we can get a taste of how that was for her, and how you how you helped each other really which would be interesting for people. So, enter Maria Welcome Maria. How are you. So were you really thinking of leaving Martin at one stage?
Iain: No that was my thoughts.
Maria: It was all in his head.
Iain: So when he first started investigating and trying to disprove what was very important to you in your life, what was your initial response?
Maria: I’m not sure I was actually really aware of the depth to which he was searching or trying to disprove. I'd be going out to these seminars and courses and I'd be coming back being all very exuberant and excited and he would, nine times out of 10, flattened me by saying ‘well how do you know that’? ‘Is there any evidence, where’s the proof’? We would just have a little bit of a tittletattle about it. And I'd walk away and sulk. But I wasn’t really aware he was going away and he was doing all this research. It was like he had a separate life doing all of that. So when things started to change for Martin it was a big surprise to me that anything had actually been going on. I think I'd been too busy in my own life, in what I was doing, so our lives had been running parallel and then suddenly we sort of came back together again and then it was a huge shock actually.
Iain: So were you aware before he told you, that something was changing fundamentally with him?
Maria: Not really, no. Again I think because I was probably wrapped up in my own stuff. I’d be the one who was going out to clinic and working, being with clients and like-minded people. So I had all that social support and then coming home, Martyn would have been the one that had been there all day. And I really wasn't aware and I suppose, if he was in that space of believing that I was pulling away. He wasn't admitting that by talking to me. So for a while, I mean looking back, we were probably not talking as much as we ought to have done.
Iain: So when he told you that he had a major breakthrough and he thought he was either - do you remember what you said to her when you…
Martyn: I don't think we actually had a conversation when I first said it, because it was almost like a joke wasn't it? It just wasn't taken seriously at all. I think again we just passed each other. We had that conversation, and I think we just moved away from each other and didn't speak.
Iain: So you told her you were enlightened, did you?
Martyn: I never told her I was enlightened. I didn't even know that word at the time. That was quite amazing.
Iain: So I’m interested, what words did you use, do you remember?
Martyn: I told her that I'd found this silence. That's what it was. I’d found a silence and because again, words like awareness and consciousness, they're not words that were in my vocabulary. I'd never used those words before. So I didn't know what it was. I had no idea what it was. But I did know that (from what Maria had told me), that it was what she was searching for.
Iain: You were searching for silence?
Maria: Silence….I’m not sure. I think for me, the awakening was the bigger picture. I must admit the silence thing… I can't remember now whether I'd read about the silence coming in, I really can't recall. I know that for me, my whole awareness around consciousness, I'd come into that through my training. And I've been doing that for like eight or ten years, but for Martin to suddenly turn around and say to me, I’ve found this thing, or this… Whatever it was, I was stunned. I was really surprised because I had no awareness he was doing. That was the biggest surprise. And then there was a moment where he described having a big aha moment and describing then he thought that he was in this space, and I was like.. No, it’s Martyn! And it was only after then I think I realised just how much distance I'd put between who I am, and what I perceived to be an awakened person. I put it up out there, like you said on the pedestal. And I really put it out of my reach. And then over… Well the few months that followed, we had conversations. I'd heard conversations with other guru type people, I've read some books, and words Martyn was using, were ringing familiar, to these other characters. I still would question him, I still wouldn't believe him. He'd give me a response to a question but I'd still go and look elsewhere for the answer, only to find that what he was saying, it was exactly what this other person might be saying too. So gradually I came round to an acceptance of actually, he might be where he says he is. But I was still in disbelief.
Martyn: Mind you , I didn’t know where I was!
Maria: But he's an everyday person. I began to realise too, that I had that belief that you had to be special to have this awareness.
Iain: We made a program this morning with exactly the same theme, with someone that got much more into depth (in terms of the commitment to their search) over years and years and years. And in the end, it seems it's a simple thing. Not easy to find, but there's a simplicity. It gets missed because people are looking out there, information information…
Maria: That’s the biggest thing. That's the really biggest thing. The biggest shock for me is simplicity. And I know that there was a lot of work put in by Martyn, which I even didn't see, but talking about it now and how I've deepened, I wouldn't say I'm in the space Martyn's in, but I've deepened in my own awareness. It is simple.
Iain: Lets talk more about this simplicity, this is so important.
Maria: It’s that whole thing around - we are our programming. We are our belief systems. And being unconscious, we go through everyday life and we just do the job’s, do them run of the mill, whatever. And you just don't think of there being any other type of reality. Now what we've realised is, that actually just by slowing down, just by focusing in, listening within yourself, just taking time maybe to just pause through out the day, is enough to reconnect yourself to your inner self. And in doing that, you are quieting the mind. Rather than having that nagging narrative all the time, that distracts you from everything. That just keeps you being the zombie as I like to call it. You wake up and you realise there is actually another way to go through life. A more joyous way to go through life and that's being awake, to realise you have choices. You’re not just running from one decision to the another decision, based on negative thoughts, based on fears that seem to be pre-programmed in.
Iain: So how does this change your relationship. You were getting on pretty well before, you loved each other and you confirmed (Maria) you weren’t about to leave him, so everything is okay. But obviously your relationship has deepened somewhat. So talk about how your relationship is now.
Maria: We're talking. We talk about everything and there's much more of a connection. And it's not just personality connection. There's a heart connection. There's an intimacy. Definitely the whole relationship is just deeper. Much deeper. It's like we're not controlled by those fears of inadequacies within ourself, and then reflecting those out to our partner. So I may have had fears in the past of ‘Oh what does he think of me, or or what's he doing, or what what if I said this, or what if he said that’. Those things have all gone. It's like we are much more present. I mean obviously Martin is (like this) all the time. I have moments where I am and when I'm not. But I am mostly able to be more present and in doing so, you're far more honest. You're actually far more able to connect with yourself and know what it is you want, and what you need to say in any moment. I think that's just opened up a whole new level to our relationship.
Iain: Do you feel something resonates from Martyn, or do you think you're just sort of meeting in the same place and he's encouraging you somehow?
Maria: There’s a meeting. I think I'm feeling my own resonance, my own vibration rising, rising. And definitely when we have conversations, if I've come in and I’m moaning about something, I'm very much in the ego and he’ll say something or point (to something), and then I'll just laugh at myself because I realise, I've switched. And then I can see that I've switched so I'll become the observer again, I can see my behaviour bring me back in. His energy level brings me back up. But I’m aware too that my own resonance, is raising. I'm not sure that I can put all the glory on saying that he's doing all of it, I think my own energy raises up too. It’s hard to describe. Obviously Martyn has his whole energy there, I'm walking into that energy that is lifting me. But then my own energy lifts within that, and so there is a meeting. I'd like to believe that if I was on the same level as Martyn - in that place - in that being awakened and being all the time, that it would be a meeting and that recognition perhaps, of one. But at the moment I still have those dips and dives.
Iain: Okay (to Martyn) and you're beyond dips and dives, or do you think you are for the moment?
Martyn: I don’t think anyone knows really. No one knows what the next moments going to bring. I think all I would say to anyone seeking enlightenment, is something I said to someone earlier today actually, and that is the very thing you're looking for, is where you’re looking from. Stop looking out there for it. It’s in here, and it always has been.
Iain: The very thing you're looking for, is where you're looking from. That's good title for the program. we’ll see. Anything to add in passing as a last comment?
Maria: Just that being awakened doesn't mean you’re not human. He is very human, he's still Martyn. He still has a personality. I had a really big fear that being awakened meant you lose all of that, and he's proven to me that that's not the case. He’s still very human. In the moment he can still be reactive, but lets it go instantly. That moment passes. It’s very refreshing. Challenging sometimes, but refreshing.
Iain: And that's not a bad role for life is it, challenging but refreshing.
Maria: But on the whole, life’s happier. Much happier.
Iain: Good. Well thank you both. Thank you coming and sharing here. I’m going to plug your book again. ‘Enlightenment- The Keys to Consciousness. Experienced and written by Martyn Wilson’.
Hi my name is Martyn Wilson and I’ve been asked to come along today and do a short visualisation for Conscious TV. This is a technique that I used for many, many weeks and months, to get me to a place of mindfulness, and no uncontrolled thoughts. This is not a meditation. This is a technique that I used and use very successfully just to take away uncontrolled thought. To give you a brief idea, I think we can all say that we can look back at our past, and we can look at things that we we’ve done, and we all know we can also come up with ideas of how we could have done it differently. But of course the past is no good to us, so we can sort of drop that and get rid of it. But those thoughts don't go away that easily. Of course we can also look forward and we can look at something that we might have coming up in the future, and also look at different variations of how we could do that. Again, these are thoughts that come in uncontrolled, and sort of race through our mind, and really cloging up our existence. They clog up the ability to be in there now.
What I’m going to ask you to do, is to start with, just picture yourself in a nature scene. This is any nature scene of your choice. If you feel more comfortable closing your eyes to do this you can, but this is a technique that (going forward) you will be able to use during your normal working day and whatever you might be doing. You can use this all day every day. So just picture yourself in a nature scene, and just take a moment to have a look around. Look at any colours, feel the breeze on your face. Maybe just feel whatever is underneath your feet. Just really, really get a feel for all of the senses. The smells, tastes even, anything that might come up. Just as you start to do that, we’re going to use an anchoring technique where we just touch our thumb and our forefinger together.
As you're in your nature scene, and you touch the thumb and your forefinger together, you'll see a doorway appear. Look at the door, have a look at the colour of the door, any textures. Look at the frame and when you're ready, just take a step inside. Walk inside the door and once inside, you're going to see a room. Now this room can be anything you want it to be. If you want to decorate it, anyway you want to decorate it, you can. Any furniture you want to put in it, it's entirely up to you. It's your room. It's your safe room. When you’re inside the room, now picture yourself standing in the centre of the room and in front of you is a fish tank. The fish tank can be anything you want it to be. It could have fish in it, or it could have ornaments in it. It's entirely up to you. But just look into it. So you can now see yourself standing in front of the fish tank. Any thoughts that come into your mind now, just pluck them out and just drop them into the fish tank.
At this point it's important to understand that we're not trying to understand these thoughts. We're not trying to pull them apart to make sense of them. We are just dropping them into the fish tank and observing them. Just look at them. They may move around, they might swim around, they might sink or float. It doesn't matter. Just observe. And as you observe your thoughts, ask yourself a simple question. That is, ‘what will my next thought be’? If you try that now, while you're observing your thoughts and you ask yourself ‘what will my next thought be’, you’ll notice that those thoughts very, very quickly start to dissolve and disappear.
This is because when you become aware of your thoughts, you take all of the power back and they're not uncontrolled thoughts anymore, they're now your thoughts. You've taken control. And of course while you’re doing this, if any other thoughts come up just do exactly the same thing. Drop them into the fish tank and just observe. Just watch them and again, ask yourself that question - ‘what will my next thought be’? Now of course, the next time you've got uncontrolled thoughts coming up and you want to do this, you can now use that anchoring technique of touching your thumb and your forefinger together, and that doorway will appear instantly.
You can walk inside. You can be there straight away. The more you practice this, the longer and longer the periods of time will be with no uncontrolled thought. The more you practice it, the more you'll be able to do it with your eyes open. You won't need to close your eyes anymore. You’ll be able to go to work, go to school, do house work, anything you need to do whilst interacting with other people. You can do this to bring yourself back into the present moment by observing those thoughts and watching them dissolve. I hope this helps you in the same way it’s helped me and I’d just like to say thank you very much for listening. Thank you, Goodbye.
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