David Bingham with Dan Jackson and Una Ni Chiosain – Clear Seeing
Interview by Iain McNay
Iain: Hello, and welcome to conscious.tv. I’m Iain McNay and today we have a program about Clear Seeing. I have three guests in the studio. We have David Bingham who’s been on many times before.
Iain: We have Dan...
Iain: ...and we have Una.
Iain: (to David) So, we have basically had you on many times now on conscious.tv. We’ve always had a great response, David, to the interviews with you and I know that both Dan and Una found you through conscious.tv and they had sessions with you. I think Dan was a personal one and Una was a phone session. And something happened in those sessions, so we are going to explore over the next hour or so exactly what happened and how it changed their lives. We’ll also look at your lives before that, because I think you were both [spiritual]seekers. In fact, we’ll start with you Dan. You were seeking for quite a long time, weren’t you?
Dan: Yeah, I guess I started properly seeking when I was about twenty-five and that was Buddhist meditation actually. And I did that for a good twenty years.
Iain: Did you feel there was movement during that time? Did you feel that you were...?
Dan: Yeah, it was a fascinating time, if I’m honest. And I am very grateful for, you know, the teaching that I had from those people. But it came to a natural end and I guess about two years ago, I became really interested in Non-Dualism.
Iain: And what attracted you to Non-Duality?
Dan: Well, it was very different. It is very different I think, to perhaps more conventional paths, specifically the one I was supposedly on in the sense that it wasn’t talking about a linear journey that one might go on, it was more open ended than that. I like the idea of circularity and of there being no linear journey that one had to go on, as it were. It was quite a liberating idea.
Iain: And how did that idea affect you in your day to day life?
Dan: Well, I sensed that there wasn’t so much of a person on a journey anymore, that there was really just ‘this’unfolding. You know, on a moment to moment basis there wasn’t some imagined Dan in the past who had been on part of a journey, and then Dan in the future who is going to complete some sort of journey. And that really, what was available was right here, right now.
Iain: You sent me some notes beforehand and you were saying you had a very significant experience at some point didn’t you?
Dan: Yeah, yeah. I was listening to an interview with John Wheeler actually, and it was just fantastically simple, his message, which is: you are what you seek. You are what you seek, right now. And while listening to that, things just seemed to fall away. Certain boundaries, ideas of the body and of the mind seemed to fall away. And after that things weren’t really the same... at all. (laughs)
Iain: And how were they different?
Dan: They were just much simpler and there was much more happiness around and a sense of, how could I have missed this? How could I have missed this? This is so simple, so obvious. This is what’s always been the case. And a great sense of freedom as well and peace.
Iain: And then you saw, or heard about David and you went to his...
Dan: Yeah, I actually watched him on one of your programs and what he was saying seemed to confirm something for me. [We were] sort of speaking the same language as it were, and so a friend of mine gave me David’s number, and yeah, the rest is history really. (smiles)
Iain: Well yes, but the history is also what I am partly interested in. (laughing) So, you went to see David and you sat with him, spent some time with him. What is you recollection of that session? What actually happened in that session?
Dan: Well, there were several phone calls before that and [it was] interesting the first time I rang him. When I sat down, before I picked up the phone, I thought to myself, “Why am I ringing this person? I already know... I don’t have any questions, actually.” And the first thing I said to him was, “Hello David. My name is Dan. I don’t really know why I’m calling you.” And he said, “Well, it’s because you’re already clear. You don’t have any questions.” So, it was a confirmation of something that had already unfolded. But there were still many other conversations. Then actually meeting him face to face was very helpful as well.
Iain: How was it helpful? I know I am digging around here, but people watching this – this is important for them to somehow have a grasp, or an in, on what can maybe happen for them, you see?
Dan: Well, I’d use the word resonance. I was talking to somebody earlier about it this. I think that everyone has a completely different journey that they go on, and some people seem to resonate with you and not resonate. And we just resonated. There was a resonance and a simplicity about that, as well; an utter simplicity about that. But funny enough, it’s not to say that previously there hadn’t been people who I’d also enjoyed talking to and been... you know, that was the case as well, but that changed. So, what I imagined would continue for perhaps years and years, decades, on this great search suddenly seemed to change. And that’s ok. It just changed.
Iain: And did you feel that the work you’d done, all the Buddhist meditation and other things, they contributed to what happened?
Dan: Not really.
Iain: That’s interesting. A lot of people say that.
Dan: Not really in one sense, but in another sense, yes, perhaps. It’s a hard question. At that time that was perfect for me... and looking back at it, yes, I suppose back into the old story there was a person there searching, searching for what he thought was freedom. Looking back at that person who doesn’t seem to be there anymore, if I’m honest, that’s what that person had to do.
Iain: What do you mean by that person doesn’t seem to be there anymore?
Dan: It’s like a phantom. It’s like a ghost.
Iain: So there was a Dan who had a personality and a lifestyle... and thoughts and patterns, and you’re saying that Dan is no longer there? Is that what you are saying?
Dan: The Dan who was suffering in a certain way isn’t there. The Dan that was worried and neurotic perhaps, about certain things, work or family. I’ve got two kids and it’s [the thought of] how are they going to be? That sort of thing, you know: how are they going to be in the future? That sort of person is not really there anymore. Things concern me, but there is no drive to fix it, or there is no sense of it being wrong. (laughs)
Iain: So, you’re not sort of hooked in to these dramas.
Dan: No. If my son falls over and bangs his knee, then he falls over and bangs his knee. It’s happened before and it will happen again, so it’s ok. I mean, God forbid anything would happen to either of them, but if it did, then that would be the case as well. That would be the case as well. So, it is only ever what it is. It’s only what it is.
Iain: Ok, thank you. We’ll come back obviously and we’ll talk to you more about what happened in the session from David’s point of view and his wider picture, but let’s look at your (turns to Una) little bit of history, if that’s ok? You were also seeking in your own way weren’t you?
Una: I was and it kind of started almost by accident because I hadn’t really heard about spirituality or Non-Duality, as such. It was a friend of mine, just one weekend, I called her on her mobile phone and I said, “What are you up to? Would you like to meet up?” And she happened to be in Inisheer, which is a small, little island off the west coast of Ireland and she was at a retreat with Mooji. I’m sure a lot of people have heard of Mooji. I didn’t have a clue what it was and I didn’t know anything about it, but the weather was beautiful and I just hopped in the car and I went. I arrived straight into this retreat, which had already started. And I have to say, like Dan, the word I think for me was a resonance there. I didn’t know what it was, but when I walked in the door there was like an instant resonance. It’s hard to describe, it’s... yeah, a resonance. I don’t know how to describe it exactly. I guess it might be a falling away of the identity, or thoughts or something, when you actually meet someone who is self-realized, but I’m not sure.
Iain: So, you kind of felt less attached to Una as you knew her, kind of thing...
Una: That’s right. It’s like a moment of just being very present and in the moment. It just kind of happened like that.
Iain: And how was your life at the time?
Una: Well, to tell you the honest truth, it wasn’t probably the best time in my life, which is maybe why I fell onto this, but it wasn’t a conscious decision. I had actually read ‘The Power of Now’ by Eckhart Tolle maybe a month before that, or a short while before that. And that was the first ever book that I had read about spirituality, as such. There was that moment, but after that the mind came in and I suppose I became a ‘seeker’, because then I wanted to understand more and know more about it, you know?
Iain: I think again from what you told me earlier, you went to see someone called Stuart Schwartz?
Una: That’s right, yeah. And it was a very similar situation with Stuart Schwartz. There was a retreat on in Galway and I decided ok – well, at that time I was going to retreats and satsangs that were on in Ireland and I didn’t really know much about Stuart Schwartz – and again, it was very similar. I just walked into the room where the retreat was on and I felt this… there was this instant resonance, or something there. In a sense, on an experiential level, it is like a deep relaxation. It’s like a relief. I think it might be a letting go of the very fixated thoughts and it’s just kind of a letting go and a relaxing or something. So that same kind of resonance with Stuart Schwartz when I first met him, yeah.
Iain: And you found David again through conscious.tv and you phoned him up, didn’t you?
Una: I did, actually. I saw the panel interview where David was talking with two others. It was Tim Freke and Richard Sylvester and I watched that. Again, there was a bit of a resonance with David, especially some of the things that he talked about. He placed an emphasis on consciousness being infinite... and infinite possibilities... it was something about that, that kind of spoke to me. So I decided I would call David after that interview.
Iain: And what happened during that conversation that you remember?
Una: Well, (laughs) I called him up and the funny thing about Non-Duality - I suppose it’s because of the Oneness you know - you’re just calling up a total stranger that you have never spoken to before and it’s kind of a strange thing. I just called him up and he had said on his website something like ‘consultations available’ or something and I wasn’t quite sure. So, I phoned him up and the first thing I said to him was, “I am not quite sure how the consultations work” and then we started talking. I wasn’t really sure. I think Dan mentioned it as well, there wasn’t much thought. It was like a spontaneous thing.
Una: Even when I dialed the number there was even a thought of “Why am I doing this?” But then we got talking and we were on the phone I think for quite a long time. And during that phone call there was a kind of a seeing of... a seeing, yeah.
Iain: Ok, now explain what you mean by seeing.
Una: Well, when I was seeking all those years, seeking, seeking, seeking, and I think I realise now in retrospect that I had this idea that I was seeking for this blissful state. I felt bliss when I first met Mooji and when I met Stuart Schwartz. I felt this kind of bliss and when I was talking to David, he helped me to see, I think, that that bliss was an experience. And he asked me, “What was knowing that experience? What was knowing that bliss?” And I began to see that all those experiences which I thought were spiritual experiences were just that: experiences that come and go and that they change. They come and go and they are impermanent. And that the knowing of that, is the permanent awareness. And David helped me to see that.
Iain: Ok. That’s a big step, isn’t it? A big realisation.
Una: Well, a big realisation, yes, but at the time it seemed like I remember thinking, “Oh”. It seemed so inconsequential at the time. It was like “Oh” because I think it’s almost [like] you’ve known it all along, but you just think you didn’t know it. I remember saying to David, “It can’t be that simple!” (laughs)
Una: Can it be that simple? Because I think you build it up into this big thing, you know? As a seeker you’re… well, in my case anyway, I was looking for bliss and permanent peace and happiness.
Iain: You had an idea in your mind of what this might be like...
Una: I had a vague idea, yeah. (nodding)
Iain: Yeah, and you had this expectation... and what happened didn’t necessarily meet your expectation. But you saw something clearly, you saw reality clearly.
Una: (nodding) Yeah, I saw that the awareness, that never changing awareness, is who we are. And that everything else is just coming and going.
Iain: Ok. Thank you. (turns to David) So, David...
David: I thought that was great Non-Dual pointing there. That was just such a great description and so attuned to the way it is, because it is so easily overlooked because it is our essential nature and it is already present. People are looking for something new and then when it is seen, you can hardly believe that it’s so simple.
Iain: We are somehow programmed to expect something dramatic, and there are books about Kundalini awakenings and you read these stories about people that have these dramatic experiences and then their life changes. And that’s, I think, part of the problem, isn’t it?
Iain: That we have an idea of what we think the real reality is. As you both have said in a very clear way, is that it was actually very ordinary and yet, very clear in itself. You both actually had similar experiences in a way, didn’t you? I know experience isn’t the best word, but... similar realisation.
Dan: Yes, and like David said, I think the whole idea of it being not what you expect. I know I have heard lots of people say that. In fact some people have even said, you know, that they’re slightly disappointed. (laughing) Which is not really the case, I don’t think. But it’s not what you expect. It’s been here all the time. How could I have missed that? You know? What a buffoon! How could I have missed that? That’s who I am. That’s who I am. That’s who I’ve always been. It’s always been here.
Iain: It’s interesting that this John Wheeler tape... because wasn’t it John Wheeler that was also the catalyst for you? (gestures to David)
David: It was.
Iain: Yeah, tell us...
David: (to Dan) Was it that tape?
Dan: The ‘Get Real’ thing...
David: Yeah...wow, that’s great! That’s such a fantastic tape. (Laughing)
Iain: (to David) When we first had you on conscious.tv that was that same... is that the same program, is it?
David: We have a mutual friend, Paul. (to Dan) Is it that Paul forwarded the recording to you, or how did you come about it?
David: Doesn’t really matter much.
Dan: It’s a friend. But I’ve never heard anything like that myself. It’s just extraordinary the simplicity that he cuts across.
Iain: So, there’s people watching this program and they feel that they want what you guys have, because you’ve found a degree of peace, you’ve found who you really are. I know it’s a silly question in one way, what advice can you give? You have given a story about how you have arrived at this point, but maybe David, what can you say to widen the picture for people?
David: In my experience, what’s noticeable is that there are many people now who are ready to hear this. Increasing numbers. And so, there is a real resonance and I think what’s happening is the idea of it being really difficult, or something that is attained after a long period of spiritual practice, is falling away. I think people are recognising that much of the spiritual knowledge, much of traditional spirituality and religion and much of the new age stuff as well, are actually taking consciousness into a cul-de-sac. But what I feel is that that’s becoming exposed. I think people are recognising that much of that stuff is redundant, and it is on a level of knowing because the Infinite Being is revealing itself to itself. And the evidence I see is that That, is something that is becoming widely available, and it isn’t something that anyone is doing individually, it’s just that that seems to be what’s arising.
I was talking to a guy recently by email and he saw clearly as a result of exchanging about three e-mails, which is absolutely amazing! So, it seems to be more simple in the delivery, more simple in the communication. I think Una and Dan have just really, very simply, described the nature of Self Realisation in such an utterly simple way. And it’s just wonderful to hear them describing it in such a great way. I wish I could have said it that simply when I first came on! (laughs) Because it’s just... it is just so accessible. And it’s an amazing wave, really now, that is available to people. It’s recognising that all the obstacles that appear to be there actually aren’t there!
Iain: I know with Dan you were saying that you gave us a little account of... well, not account necessarily, but you explained about your relationship with your children and practically, in one way nothing changed, but your attitude changed. And I wonder whether, Una, you had a similar experience of how your attitude, in day to day very ordinary situations, has changed after you saw reality clearly.
Una: Well, it’s like on the surface, I mean, nothing’s changed really. My life’s just carried on exactly as it was before. But again, it’s strange to be using the word ‘relaxation’, but there is kind of a deeper knowing, so that everything that happens on the surface - and my relationships with people and with my family - everything just seems so much easier. It’s just easy. It’s just easier because I don’t tend to get caught up so much in giving [into] something which is just passing and not of really big importance. There is more a recognition that things are coming and going and they’re not... things aren’t so important. There’s a lighter, easier feel to things in general. But, I would like to say though, that I did quite a lot of retreats with Stuart Schwartz and I did individual sessions with him. I did a lot of work with him on letting go of the conditioning - all that programmed conditioning of which there was a lot. I think that that was a great help as well. Like letting go of all those beliefs that you really believe so strongly and I’ve seen through those and letting go of those. I think that really helped as well.
Iain: So, that was a loosening of your belief system.
Una: Yeah! Yeah, definitely.
Iain: Not to try and change it, but I guess that there is an awareness. Just talk very briefly, not so much the technique that was used, but how that affected you.
Una: Well, I suppose everybody has conditioned beliefs about the world, about themselves, about life and so on. And I suppose, as an individual, you hold on tightly to some of those beliefs and some of them you might be aware of, which is great; others you might not and they’re maybe running your life a bit. Or you’re believing them and acting them out and so forth. I think it was very helpful to look at some of those. Just look at them and be aware of them and realise that they have no reality, they have no substance really. They’re just ideas and I think that was quite helpful for me in my case.
Iain: (to David) I know you were talking earlier, in a programme that we made today with Renate, about the [conditioned] programs that we have. And they are so strong. It’s almost as if we create our reality through these programs. Do you want to explain briefly how you see that?
David: Yes. Trying to explain that kind of sequence, what I would say is that we begin as the Infinite Being and remain as the Infinite Being always. We never move from the Infinite Being, but what we’ve done is assumed certain boundaries and certain limitations, and from that we’ve built limitations on limitations. So, even though all there ever is is one’s pristine nature as Infinite Consciousness, we’ve assumed the appearance of these programs so that we can experience limitation. And we’ve built them one on the other, and you could say that there are personal ones. You could say that there are family ones. You could say that there are societal ones, and they’re a different mix for everyone.
But one of the main impediments to self-realisation is the story of self-realisation, you know. When spoken of - in the major religions with the saints and the figures - is that self-realisation is an end to suffering and it’s an end to limitation. Now, it is an end to limitation in that the Infinite Being that you are, the awareness or the consciousness that you are, doesn’t suffer. That is already at peace. The paradox is that there can still be individual suffering. And the individual suffering is a kind of dream suffering, but it is still running. Those programs can still run even when one’s true nature has been seen. In fact seeing one’s true nature is really the most beneficial thing in being able to dismantle the programs because you know what you truly are. You’re no longer believing that you are entangled in all of these conditioned responses to things so, you can begin to dismantle it. You can begin to unravel...
Iain: You’re not energizing these programs. They’re losing their power over you.
David: Exactly. (nodding) Yes... that’s the key thing that happens with self-realization, because the link between the sense of identity with the individual is severed so that you recognise that your true nature has actually never been connected with that. It’s just that we’ve assumed that there is a connection and that’s who we are. But that’s an illusory connection, really. Everything has phenomenal existence. Everything within the ever changing realm has phenomenal existence. So, phenomenal pain is experienced as pain. Phenomenal pleasure is experienced as pleasure, but one’s true nature never enters into that realm really.
Iain: (to Dan) So, you’re nodding there Dan.
Dan: David and I were talking about being sucked into certain situations and that’s completely gone now. There’s no sense of having to be hooked into certain situations, whether it be at work, or a family member, or friend. They might still roll on, but there’s not the same sort of effort put into them, if that’s the right word. They’re just... (turning to David) I think you used the analogy of it being like a game. I think you described it as being like a game that you’re playing with people, which is fine.
Iain: Is there an awareness of the programs running and do you just let them run without energizing them? Or is this just happening on its own without you actually being aware of it?
Dan: It’s just all going on of its own really. Yeah, it’s just unfolding as it unfolds and it’s fine. I think that was one of the most liberating things for me that everything is ok, actually. It always has been ok. There’s nothing wrong. There never has been anything wrong with you or anyone. Things might be painful sometimes, but it never lasts and life is ok.
Iain: You see, there is a part of me that wants to challenge you there, so I’m going to do this and see where this leads. People might say, “Well, that’s all very well for Dan, you know, and he’s got a job and he lives in Bath, which is a nice place. But what happens if he’s in the hospital in Libya, or he’s just been shot in Syria? Then maybe that’s not so easy to have that attitude.”
Dan: No, that would be extremely painful and unpleasant; desperately so. But again, I would say that would be actually what was taking place and nothing else. There would be no judgement of it. There would be no, perhaps, need for it to be anything other than what it was. So, if someone makes me sort of angry at work – they make me angry at work. But it doesn’t hang around, it gets gone...
Iain: So, the anger comes and then it dissipates...
Dan: Yeah, it can be quite fierce for a while...
Iain: Yeah, yeah. So, have people said anything at work about how you are different?
Dan: Not at work, but my wife said I seem to be happier.
Iain: And that would seem to make her happy...
Dan: (laughing) I hope so...
Iain: (turning to Una) What about you Una? When you see something like anger, or some old pattern arising, how is that for you?
Una: Well, if I see an old pattern arising I do try and look at it, and I suppose bring it into awareness and see what old belief might be running, or something like that. I try and still work away at that.
Iain: What do you tend to find when you look?
Una: I have to say it’s getting easier and easier and it’s almost happening by itself. For example, a couple of weeks ago I spent some time with somebody who was quite tense and angry and when I went home I was quite irritated. So, I looked at that and I realised – I can’t remember what I realised, but I think it had something to do with that person’s only reflecting back to me something that was going on inside myself. It had absolutely nothing to do with them when I really looked at it. That, again, is very relaxing! Because that irritation comes up and you think Oh! But I looked at it and I realised that it had nothing to do with them, it was something in me. Maybe some old belief or something and then it just dissipated and then there is that kind of feeling of ease and relaxation again.
Iain: And do you find it helpful to go to the core of that belief? Or, do you just find that happens if it is necessary?
Una: Yeah, depends. I think it’s just when it’s necessary maybe? Things don’t really affect you so much, but occasionally there might be something I feel my instinct, or my gut is telling me that something is not quite right here, and then I would look at it.
Iain: So, Dan, what would you say to somebody who is watching this and they say, “I want what Dan has?” What would you say to those people?
Dan: They’ve already got it. You are already what you seek. I haven’t got anything because no one achieves anything it’s our natural state. We already are Infinite Beings, as David says, with Infinite potential. There is no achievement of any kind, at all. It does have a flavor, in a funny kind of way, of being like a child. I’ve got two young children so I’m quite close to that experience. There is that flavor of it in that sense of being completely open to what happens next. They haven’t got any structure, or any sort of agenda really. No concept of time and not really a space, to be honest. So, (laughs) it’s a bit like that, you know. It’s what’s going on right now. It’s all we ever have I suppose, all there ever is.
Iain: And how does that change you as a parent?
Dan: That’s a good question. I think it probably makes you a nicer parent maybe? Because you’re not quite hanging on to anything so much. But the other day one of them did say, “You’re such a grumpy, horrid, old daddy.” (everyone laughs)
Dan: Yes! And I said, “Yes, I am because you pushed your brother off his chair. That’s why I am grumpy with you. Do you expect me to be happy that you pushed your brother off his chair?” And that’s the whole thing of it being a game, you know? So I turn it off, but five seconds later I’m giving him a hug and it’s gone.
Iain: I get the feeling that there’s a process of being a parent and it’s not something that you’re thinking about. What is appropriate comes to you and you act on that whatever comes. Is that right?
Dan: It’s an interesting area parenting, actually. I talk to David about this because we talked about the conditioning of your own parents that you inherit, and so you kind of act out, perhaps, how you think you should parent. It’s not an exact science, is it? I think every parent is different. So one parent would accept that, and one parent would accept that. It probably has quite a lot to do with your own conditioning. But, you know, I get it wrong. My wife says, “Why did you do that? You’ve just upset them.” And I say, “Well, I thought I should have said that.” She says, “Well, no. You got that wrong.” I say, “Ok, I got it wrong.” But it doesn’t really matter. I got it wrong, you know. (everyone laughs)
Iain: David, let’s go back to basics again. With Clear Seeing, we have had a very simple explanation from Dan and Una. Just explain again from your words what Clear Seeing is.
David: Clear Seeing is really when the programming that we’ve invested in being a human being is seen through so you recognise that you are the Being. You are the Being with a capital ‘B’, rather than the human being with the story. It doesn’t mean that the human story disappears, it’s just that you have made the distinction between the two. So, the human continues much as before, although with Clear Seeing a consciousness does come in, as Una was describing, she’s able to look more clearly now to see what the programming is and how to dismantle that, or how to see through it. And as Dan says also: to see it as a game, because he can assume the role of being a ‘grumpy dad’ or he can assume the role of being a ‘very loving dad’, but he knows what he truly is, he’s the Being-ness within which all the appearances are arising.
So, he can assume these roles, we can assume any role, we can assume the role of a relationship, we can assume the role or the participator of an argument, or a fight (not that you particularly choose that). There aren’t really any limitations, but it depends on the appropriateness of the situation. So, sometimes it’s necessary to behave in a particular way, but there is a realisation that it’s a role being played. Clear Seeing is where there is a clear knowing of one’s true nature, which is just the simple awareness within which everything is arising.
Iain: Now, I get the feeling that most people, if not everybody, is in Clear Seeing sometimes. Am I right there?
David: I wouldn’t use those terms. The nature of Clear Seeing is that one’s true nature is seen. Now, one’s true nature is ever present, and it’s not that it’s ever been anywhere, or that it goes anywhere. But one of the things within the story of spiritual seeking is that there is a state that accompanies Clear Seeing, and most people think that if there is silence, that if there is peace, then there is clarity so that there is never a losing of the knowing of one’s true nature from moment to moment. That is permanently established and it never goes. To me, that isn’t exactly the way it is. It’s more [the fact] that once one’s true nature is known there’s nothing that is an impediment to Clear Seeing because whatever arises - whether it’s telling off your son or having a conversation with somebody who’s very angry - it doesn’t matter what it is, because Clear Seeing is simply knowing that it is the true nature that one already is. The awareness that is aware of whatever is arising. So, you don’t have to fix anything that is arising. You don’t have to make a bit of turbulence go away for there to be Clear Seeing, it’s just that you are clearly seeing what turbulence is. Turbulence has a flavor, there’s an experiential component, sometimes an emotional component. That’s what’s arising. So, that isn’t seen as an obstacle to Clear Seeing because you’re recognising that whatever is arising is being clearly seen because it’s recognised that that is just phenomena that’s appearing.
The relaxation that takes place that these guys talk of, is the relaxing into knowing that you are already where you are, and nothing can be an impediment to that because it’s only by the virtue of one’s true nature that anything canbe experienced. So, suffering here, or discomfort there, isn’t something you feel you have to overcome. And you know without question, that it doesn’t have to be overcome for Clear Seeing. I guess the concept that I’ve come to see, which is as a result of just integrating this into daily life, is that really everything is already as it should be. So, if you do meet someone who is a bit grumpy, or somebody says to you “You need to do this”, then – (turning to Iain) it’s like when you came into the studio earlier today and you said, “I don’t like that!” Now, that wasn’t a problem, that was actually perfect because that’s what was required. You felt it and you acted on it. I recognised it and we did something different. And as a result of that, it was better.
So, nothing is ever seen to be a problem. You don’t see anything – there’s nothing to overcome. It’s really recognising that what’s happening and everything we need to see is arising in front of us. You don’t need to go anywhere else, because you’re the Infinite Being everything comes to you. It’s all here! The seeking is just a mode where we’ve pretended we’re not here and we have to go over there to find something. But when the seeking comes to an end there’s really just a seeing that here you are and that everything that is required will be appearing before me. I don’t need to orchestrate anything. I don’t need to engage the mind to try to push this over there, or pull this over here because it just happens. Because what is orchestrating all of it, is Infinite Intelligence, Infinite Love and therefore why not allow that instead?
Iain: What my question was trying to do was trying to find encouragement for people to find a portal, if you like. You know, we’re all – I include myself in this all the time – we’re all so busy mentally getting on with our lives and just a day in the studio here is very demanding. It’s like the Clear Seeing is there and it’s forgotten. There’s this mental challenges going on and reactions, or whatever, and for me anyway, I think there’s often a portal there that takes me directly to Clear Seeing and if there is an awareness of what Clear Seeing is then it’s more available or transparent, I’m just looking from up here (hand goes up) rather than down there (hand goes down). And I think a lot of people have this, it’s just that they don’t recognise it in their daily life. It’s just like, you say Enlightenment or Freedom or Self-Realisation and the think, ‘Ugh’. It’s so far away, and yet is it so far away? No!
David: No, it isn’t.
Iain: You know, what we try and do on conscious.tv is just take things that maybe seem very mystical and complicated and try and make them - not just simple but… accessible I think is the word I am looking for. We have about 5 minutes left... maybe all of you can say something briefly about the accessibility of Clear Seeing if that means something to you?
David: Ok. Can I just have another go at that one?
David: Because really what you’re describing is experiencing [life] through a certain type of programming because you know what it is to be peaceful. But what we do is - through conditioning and through certain beliefs - we’ve built a certain structure that is giving rise to our experience as it is. Now, (looking towards Iain) I hope you don’t mind me being personal here... I’m going to be (laughs). With Iain, because Iain has been successful in life, and Iain has a powerful intellect and also very strong intuition, there’s a trusting of the way Iain operates because he has achieved a lot. There have been great things that have been achieved as a result of the functioning.
Now, what I would say is that there are certain programs that have been installed to do with control and to do with the way Iain operates that has been very effective, but it hasn’t been infinitely effective. Just by looking at one or two things, for instance you tend to thrive on a lot of activity. You love a lot of things happening. You love it when you have a lot to think about. You have these projects and it’s really exciting. Now, the opposite side of that is that there is also the possibility to have it a bit more peaceful and to structure it so you could have more peace. I mean, you have the opportunity for life to be however you want it to be, and really it’s about acknowledging that the way it’s structured is a conscious choice, it’s the choice that you’ve actually made. It isn’t that the circumstances are arising where there is difficulty and you have no control over it. It’s because you’ve subscribed to a particular belief as to the way life appears and these elements are installed and that’s how it’s experienced. But it’s realising that it’s you as the Infinite Being that has created that whole story and that whole way of experiencing. And the only person who is responsible for that is you, the Infinite Being currently appearing as Iain.
Iain: Yes, I understand. So, how does Iain – somebody like me or anybody – how do they recognise these portals? Or am I not on the right wave length here?
David: Clear Seeing is always available. It’s really a case of looking at the functioning in terms of the daily experience and trying to dismantle the programs that are giving rise to experience as it is. Because when certain things are removed from the programming...
Iain: Yeah this is what Una was talking about with our programs...
David: ...then there is the opportunity for there to be more peace, or for there to be more silence, or for there to be more love or more expansion. It depends on the qualities that you like and it isn’t a question of anything being wrong. It’s only a question of whether that’s the way you wish to experience it, because you [are] the Infinite Being and the experience can be any way that you want it. It’s just that much of the conditioning that you have – the programmed conditioning, the belief systems that we subscribe to – much of the programming has to do with things like ‘hard work’. The idea that you have to work hard to achieve things. The idea that you achieve things in time. The idea that you, personally, have to take responsibility to make things happen in a particular way, when really, you can take more of a backseat and allow the Infinite Intelligence come through and allow you to take your foot off the gas.
Iain: Ok. Thank you. (everyone laughs) You guys got anything you briefly want to say? (to Una and Dan)
Dan: Well, perhaps the idea of surrender for me was pivotal. Giving up these ideas of who I should be, could be, wanted to be. Surrendering, giving up these fantasies about who I should or could be and then seeing that, actually, I am perfect as I am. I’m perfect as I am. There’s nothing wrong with me, there’s nothing wrong with any of it. And that’s always been the case, since day one –whatever that is – since I wasn’t born. (everyone laughs)
I’ve always been perfect. There’s nothing wrong with me. There’s nothing wrong with anyone else either. People can make bad decisions, but even those bad decisions are alright. I did talk to David about that. The idea of evil is quite interesting and that people aren’t bad or wrong. I don’t think that Clear Seeing is about becoming goodat all. It’s not about becoming this great person, this blissful person, like you said (gestures to Una), this blissful Being who never is affected by anything. It’s quite the opposite. I think you enter into life totally. You surrender into life totally to what is unfolding right in front of you – right now. So, the idea of surrender I think is very powerful. In fact, the image of Christ on the cross is an interesting one. I did actually see a crucifix with Christ on the cross when all this was unfolding and it really struck me what that surrendering is all about. It’s in every major faith, I suppose, the idea of surrender and stopping. A lot of teachers talk about that, don’t they? To just stop.
Iain: Ok. Thank you. We’re gonna leave the final words to Una. (everyone laughs)
Una: I think what really helped me when I spoke to David on the phone, was seeing that all through my life - I remember childhood experiences, or experiences as a teenager, or as an adult, and right now - the knowing was always there. It was always there. It was never not there, and it will never not be there. If that’s not too confusing, but I think when I was talking to David on the phone he helped me to see that. We talked about some experiences I had as a child watching some snow falling, there was a knower knowing that. There was a knower knowing everything. It’s that knowing that if you look at your life’s experiences as a person you can see that behind all of it, there is a knowing. That it is there and I think everyone can see it.
Iain: That is a great place to finish. So, Una, Dan and David, thanks very much. You contributed to a very interesting programme. And to all of you out there, thank you for watching conscious.tv and as always I hope we see you again soon. Good bye.
David: Hello and welcome to conscious.tv. My name is David Bingham . I’m here in the studio with Eleonora Gilbert and we’re going to do a session on Non-Dual Pointing which I’m going to demonstrate to the viewers. So, hi Eleonora.
Clear Seeing Session demonstration – David Bingham with Eleonora Gilbert
David: We know each other already and Eleonora is familiar with the process, but we’re going to be doing it live, which is something that’s never been done before. So, the way we begin is by just speaking to each other in the subject/object mode. I am addressing you. David is addressing you as Eleonora and Eleonora is responding to David. We begin in that mode which is the normal human mode, the idea that we are the individual. And then, from there, we move into the Non-Dual mode or the Universal mode of consciousness and the way we do that is by simply noticing that all there is is a field of Infinite Consciousness. That field of Infinite Consciousness is just here and appearing within the Infinite Field of Consciousness are two human beings; one called Eleonora and one called David.
What we begin to notice is that there are sounds in the room. The sound of the camera. The sound of the fan. The sound of this voice. There’s the light being registered also. So, we notice that all of those things are arising equally within theInfinite Field of Consciousness that we already are. So, when Eleonora speaks there’s the sound of a voice arising within the Infinite Field of Consciousness. When David speaks there is the sound of a voice arising within Infinite Consciousness. So, we’ve moved into that mode now where what we’re noticing is the Unified Field of Consciousness that we are. That is the field of Consciousness that everyone is and that is our true identity. We’ve temporarily taken on the mode of human life. We’ve subscribed to the idea of being a human being, having a human mind, human thoughts and human emotions, but what we truly are is this Infinite Field of Consciousness that is just here and now.
From that Unified singular Field of Consciousness we can notice that thoughts are arising, that perceptions are arising, that sounds are arising, but they’re all arising singly within this Field of Consciousness. So, no longer when there is the sound of Eleonora’s voice is it heard as another person, it’s simply heard as the voice that is arising within Infinite Consciousness as this voice is arising within the Singular Field of Consciousness.
David: I can sense that Eleonora is already fully aware of her true nature in that state that the Infinite Field of Consciousness is, the level from which she is now experiencing. She is fully aware that – in fact we’re using words and we’re saying that Eleonora is fully aware. What is really fully aware is the Infinite Being that Eleonora is, that David is, that this plant is, and that every single being watching this program is.
And the next stage in the process of Non-Dual Pointing is – because we’ve noticed that it’s a singular field of consciousness - what we notice and what everyone can notice is that within that singularity all there really is, is love. Because it’s a singular field of love within which everything is appearing. So, Eleonora is the Infinite Being. David is the Infinite Being. The table is the Infinite Being. With that clear, open field of awareness, the perception of these apparent separate objects actually amend, in terms of the way they’re perceived, because they’re perceived as being you. You recognise it as a table, but you know that it’s the Infinite appearing within limitation as a table. And as a result of that, what arises is love because the love arises as the recognition of unity. And in the process of Non-Dual pointing what is noticed is that within this Infinite Field of Love there is actually the possibility for the connection between two hearts because the love that is a Singular Field of Love is that which pervades this love, which isn’t personal love. It’s Universal love and also the Universal Love which is arising in the heart of Eleonora.
So, from the recognition of this Infinite Field of Consciousness there’s then the recognition of love. Then there is the recognition that these two emanations of the Infinite are appearing within love which creates a connection of love. But it actually isn’t a connection because it’s singular - that it is just the Singularity of Universal Love.
What I’m going to do next is, I’m going to ask Eleonora to speak because as Eleonora describes to me her experience of the Unified State of Consciousness, that gives the opportunity for the minds to connect within the singular cosmic mind - within the singular mind - which then enables the process of the flow so that we’re actually attuned to Infinite Consciousness and that begins to permeate through the mind.
(To Eleonora) So, if you can just subtly begin to describe the nature of this Unified field in which you reside.
Eleonora: The nature of the Unified Field in which I reside…
David: What is arising?
Eleonora: What I’m experiencing?
Eleonora: I’m experiencing peacefulness. My heartbeat is quite low. Tingling in the top of my head, the back of my spine… but the biggest thing that I am experiencing is really this peace, this quiet, this stillness. In fact, you are not quite in focus.
Eleonora: That’s what I’m experiencing. And an opening up of my heart as well. When you talked about love being the unification - I’m not sure if I’m using the right words here - but you mentioned unity and love arising and I completely recognise that and see that... and feel that.
David: That’s brilliant. So you can see that the love is Universal Love. That it isn’t owned by Eleonora, it is your true nature though.
Eleonora: It’s not personal.
David: Yes. That’s very good. And can you just switch the perception now so that when you use the words to describe the sensations that are arising – so there’s the sensation of peace and there’s the sensation in the spine and at the top of the head – can you just notice that they are arising within this single field of consciousness? They’re not personally owned by Eleonora.
Eleonora: Yes, but not until you said that. It’s like I could still feel my body, my tingling. But yes, I mean yes, the sensations are experienced here, but they don’t necessarily belong to me.
David: That’s great because that really is the simplicity of one’s true nature. So much of spiritual teaching is to do with development through spiritual practice, but actually everything that is required to realise one’s true nature is here in this moment... and it always has been. It’s just that we’ve believed things to the contrary. We’ve believed that it’s something that is at a distance, something we need to attain, something that we need to aspire to, something that some people have and we don’t. But actually it’s already here and if there are experiences to do with suffering, or if there are experiences to do with discord, that’s really just mental programming, and those experiences are known just as easily as the experience of peace.
So, it isn’t that one’s true nature is lost if there is suffering, or if there is confusion, or if there is any other experience that isn’t considered pleasant, it’s just that that’s what’s arising at that time and it’s arising because we’ve subscribed to particular types of experiences. Maybe we wanted to know what suffering is. Maybe we want to know what suffering is so we can experience it in contrast to our true nature.
So, it’s a very simple thing to do and it doesn’t require a spiritual teacher. Two people – any two people – providing there’s an allowing of the process, and providing people leave the beliefs that they have about the nature of what the self is, or any concepts that they have about spirituality in the process of connecting within the Infinite Field of Consciousness - that can actually be done very easily because it is our true nature. It’s fully present here and now, and it’s accessible to everyone and by just going through those simple steps.
So, I shall just repeat what the steps are: the first is to engage with the person in the normal sense, which is in the subject/object mode. So, it’s David talking to Eleonora. Then, there is a simple noticing that in reality it is an Infinite Field of Consciousness. It’s a Singular Field of Consciousness and there’s the sound of this voice; there’s the sound of a voice over there; there are other perceptions and they’re all arising equally within this Field of Consciousness. There aren’t any that are more or less who I am, it’s simply phenomena arising within the Singular Field of Consciousness.
So from that level, from the simple noticing of the singular field can arise Universal Love, because Universal Love is also the manifestation of our true nature. It’s a very subtle manifestation of out true nature especially if you’re with someone where there is resonance. You feel that you can relate to them closely, then it’s very easy to be able to tune in to the direct experience of Infinite Universal Love.
So from there, there is a connection only using words because there is no connection in Unity, obviously, but there is a shared awareness of Infinite Love. And then there can be a tuning in on a mental level where you tune in and you notice the thoughts as they’re arising. And you can just notice that the thoughts that are appearing, the concepts that are appearing, the speech that’s appearing is arising within the being that you are. Then as you do that, you realise that we’ve always resided in this Non-Dual realm. We’ve never actually entered into the realm of separation, this is where we’ve always been. This is where we are. It doesn’t matter what appears to be arising in the world, or the dramas that can appear in the world - none of those dramas will affect your essential Infinite Universal Nature. It isn’t touched by any of those, they are simply arising within the Infinite Being that you are.
One of the ideas regarding self-realisation is that if you move back into the subject/object mode, then we’ve somehow moved away from our essential nature again, but that isn’t the case. It’s just that because you are the infinite field of consciousness, you can move between any states of consciousness. You can move into the subject/object mode when you are talking to your green grocer, or your hair dresser, and you can move into the Unified Field in any other sense. You can move into the Unified Field in terms of communicating with people. When you speak to people you can experience on that level. It’s really knowing that the experiencer doesn’t have any attributes. Everything and everyone is this Singular Field of Awareness that is simply Aware. So, it’s consciousness that is aware. That’s what we are and when you know that, you can choose to experience life in Unity, or if you wish to enter into the subject/object mode you can do that also.
Do you have any questions Eleonora? You just seem very clear to me actually, but I would like to hear anything.
Eleonora: Yes, and what I notice is that immediately what comes up is– I remember hearing from Adyashanti actually that we are only one thought away from knowing who we really are and when you talked earlier about connecting with the mind and noticing thoughts – one thought came up that yes, it’s very easy to be in this particular... Oneness let’s say... because I don’t have an agenda with you. I don’t have a history with you, I don’t have anything going on, but I can imagine with one of my sons, for instance, really being taken out (snaps fingers), [of state of Oneness] if we could even say taken out, but recognising the investment in being, acting, or responding in the habitualness of mother mode / son mode. So, on the one hand I recognise that we are only one thought away from really knowing who we really are, and I also recognise that – wow, what happens when I’m there [state of separation]? When I am caught by the thought. Caught by the pain body. Caught by the history, caught by wishing something to be different than it is right now, right then. So that would be one of my questions, “Oh, yes, this is great... how can I...?”
David: Yes. Well, really it comes down to acceptance because you can – if you take the example of the relationship with your sons – it may be that your sons aren’t ready to hear this yet. And if they’re not then it’s really easy because you can just allow it to be as it is. If intuitively you feel that you could convey something in the right moment where you may be able to relate to them and be able to share the experience, then that would be great, but in either case it’s really very simple because either they will be receptive, which is wonderful, or if they’re not receptive then there isn’t any need to try because we simply accept that that’s the way it is, and we don’t make that wrong. We don’t say that there is something wrong as a result of that because their current experience is perfectly valid.
Eleonora: (Nodding) So, there is no problem then! (Laughing)
David: None at all.
Eleonora: It’s like… “Wow!”
David: Ok, thank you everybody, I hope that’s been of some enjoyment to you. Thank you.
Clear Seeing Guided Meditation with David Bingham
David: Hello, my name is David Bingham and I’d like to give you an opportunity to realise who you truly are. We’ve all believed ourselves to be human beings, and everything that we see and hear reinforces that. All the people we meet, everything you hear on TV, on the radio, in the books you read, it’s all reinforcing the idea that you are this person. But I’m going to invite you to look at another possibility. I want you to see that the Awareness that is aware isn’t confined to the body. This awareness is just present, it always is. When you were two years old you were aware in this moment, and it appears as though time has gone by, but you’re just here. The awareness that you are is just present.
So, just begin by noticing that that awareness has no boundaries. It isn’t located within the brain. It isn’t located within the mind. It’s a Universal Field of Consciousness. A Universal Field of Awareness and it simply IS. You can’t move towards it. You can’t move away from it. It’s just here.
And then, just notice that everything arises effortlessly. There’s awareness of the body. There’s awareness of the room that you’re sitting in. There’s awareness of the sounds. There’s awareness of traffic going by. There can be awareness of birds singing. There can be awareness of the furthest galaxy. There can be awareness of the wind. Everything is arising in awareness and the awareness is who you are. You’ve never been imprisoned within the human body. You’re simply the awareness that is simply here. No effort. No trying. No going anywhere. No getting anywhere. Just here.
You can play the games of acquiring. You can play the game of pretending that you need to do something. But really, you’re just here. And you’re just experiencing everything arising. So, at any time it’s possible to switch from the story of being the individual, the story of being the human being and realise that you are simply The Being with a capital ‘B’. And that Being - there is just one Being - and that one Being is who you are. It’s who I am. It’s who everyone is. There’s no duality, there’s no discord within that and everything is arising within it. So, just notice what’s arising. At any moment, if you feel discord, if you feel as though life isn’t going the way you want it to, if you get entangled in the story, or believe you were entangled when actually, you never were, just notice the awareness that you are. It’s always just here. It doesn’t matter where you are, it’s always with you. If you wake up at night notice it’s there. If you ride on the train, notice it’s there. If you’re eating, if you’re walking, or if you’re running, just notice there is awareness and then notice what is arising within it. And just notice that all of that awareness and everything that’s arising is arising effortlessly. That is all that’s required to know one’s true nature. And you can move in and out of that, because you’re the Infinite Being. That’s what you are.
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