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Pamela Wilson - Loving Mystery

Interview by Renate McNay

Renate:    Pamela is here visiting from America, doing Satsang and retreats. Tomorrow she will be on her way to Paris doing the same thing, and we are very happy and lucky to have you here.

Pamela:   Thank you.

Renate:    Pamela, I’d like to start with you telling us a little bit about your journey. How... what happened that you became interested in spiritual matters, and where were you at this point in your life? Tell us a little bit about that.

Pamela:   It’s the usual story of some enjoyment in life, with a larger degree of lack of enjoyment and unease; and never feeling comfortable in my skin and longing for something simpler and easier and truer.

Renate:    So how old were you when you actually became aware that you were not happy?

Pamela:   Very young, very young, about nine or ten.

Renate:    Yes, right. And did it have to do with the family situation or...

Pamela:   A little bit, but it was more an internal not-feeling-OK.

Renate:    Yes, yes. I was reading about it in your chapter in this book. I think you don’t have a book out yourself yet. Are you planning one?

Pamela:   Almost! Yes.

Renate:    Good [laughing]! You were fifteen when you woke up at night, and there was this Indian guy sitting in front of you...

Pamela:   Yes [laughing].

Renate: threw a pillow at him...

Pamela:   It was a little startling.

Renate:    ...and later you found out it was Ramana Maharshi.

Pamela:   Yes.

Renate:    Why do you think he appeared in your room?

Pamela:   Well, two nights before that, there was a sort of a ‘crisis’, a crisis where I just got fed up and very frustrated. I felt so limited and didn’t know how to be, really. And I said inside, and also spoke it, “If there’s anyone out there who knows anything, come here”. And it was an all-night vigil; I just kept staring at this door that went out to the porch and saying, “If there is anyone out there who knows anything, then come here!” And then the next night this Indian gentleman showed up [laughing].

Renate:    [laughing]

Pamela:   It was quite a surprise.

Renate:    Yes, I had my own little experience with Ramana Maharshi; and that was many years ago at the beginning of my path. I did groups in Germany and I was in Munich. Somebody gave me a book of Ramana Maharshi and I looked at it and I wasn’t interested at all and gave it away. In the next group meeting, somebody else gave me the same book of Ramana Maharshi and, again, I gave it away. Then, a few weeks later, I was in an esoteric bookshop in Munich, and I was looking through the books, and all of a sudden - bang! - this book fell on my head out of nowhere. I looked around - no one was in the shop but me. I picked it up - and it was the same book [laughing]!

Pamela:   [laughing] The same book.

Renate:    So then I got the message.

Pamela:   Yes.

Renate:    [laughing] I started reading it and had a profound experience with it. But OK, what happened afterwards?

Pamela:   Just went back to ordinary life, you know. There wasn’t any interpretation or meaning placed on the visit by the Sage - just went back into struggle, joy, struggle, joy.

Renate:    Right. So when did you find out it was actually a holy man who visited you?

Pamela:   It wasn’t till ’84. I was at a course and the fellow said, “I only recommend two books - Talks by Ramana Maharshi”, and a book by Nisargadatta. And the book by Ramana with his photo was passed round, and it landed in front of me and I looked down - and, “Oh, that’s the man that was in my room!”

Renate:    Right, yes. And you said you had the same experience when you were eighteen?

Pamela:   Yes, he came back [laughing].

Renate:    [laughing] He came back?

Pamela:   It was like you. You received the first two books… He came twice and I was just the usual stubborn being... But the third time he came back as Robert Adams, so...

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   And the third time I listened.

Renate:    So Robert Adams is a spiritual teacher?

Pamela:   Yes.

Renate:    And you became his student or...?

Pamela:   Yes, by just sitting there, just being with him. There wasn’t anything formal about it, really, but there was an instant relief upon entering the room where Robert was. It was the first time there was a peace that hadn’t been earned; no spiritual practice had brought the peace, apparently. It just was present.

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   Wonderful.

Renate:    So what you say is, in the moment you left the room you were back to your old struggle?

Pamela:   It would take a while, but it was very enthusiastic, the sense of ‘me’.

Renate:    Yes, right. And how did you proceed from there?

Pamela:   I just bumbled around [laughing].

Renate:    What did you do at this time?

Pamela:   Well, I kept going back to Satsang, because that was where peace apparently lived. I didn’t know it was within.

Renate:    Did you work at this time? How did you live your life?

Pamela:   I had a very outwardly wonderful life. I taught stress elimination courses and was in love with enjoying and happiness, when I could find it.

Renate:    Did you work with this technique, with this release technique, on yourself?

Pamela:   Yes.

Renate:    And did it help you release?

Pamela:   It did, it did. It soothed the conditioning and it sort of made the sense of ‘me’ lighter and more transparent. But one really had to work at it, because the ‘me’ would just rise up like this [motioning upwards with hands].

Renate:    Yes, of course. It wants to live too [laughing], I guess.

Pamela:   [laughs]

Renate:    And when did the shift actually happen?

Pamela:   Well, I had a very notable shift. A lot of friends ease into it, but mine… Because there was a lot of crisis and unhappiness and everything had fallen apart, when I went to Satsang that day with Neelam. It was just very notable. I went from hell to heaven in a moment, and heaven stabilised and hell was missing.

Renate:    Yes. So it was an instant - how would you call it - awakening?

Pamela:   It felt more like love returned back to its naturalness. The sense of ‘I’ was gone. Pamela was missing and it was a great relief.

Renate:    How did it feel?

Pamela:   [gasps, turning head to right]

Renate:    It was a relief?

Pamela:   [laughing] Heavenly, heavenly, because you see I thought it was life and circumstances and definitely other people that were causing the suffering. I didn’t realise it was the role, the sense of being a separate individual, that was the sand that was irritating.

Renate:    And you know, I can imagine the ‘me’ still would come up and try to cause suffering. How did you deal with this part when it came up?

Pamela:   Well, there wasn’t any ‘me’ left, because the ‘me’ is, of course, a phantom. It’s the mimic of consciousness and is consciousness, so it has extreme potency and power, right?

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   But it was just a tendency... Some tendencies would come - yes, it was lovely… There was just this constancy of peace and silence and feeling nothing was happening. And then a few weeks into it fear arose, and that was really remarkable because it hadn’t visited at all. And stillness said, “Fear is welcome here”. And that was a completely fresh view. Before, nothing was actually welcome unless it was peace, or joy, or delight.

Renate:    So you didn’t have to run away from it?

Pamela:   Yes, and it was very curious because, as the fear arose through the quietness, it was welcomed. It was moving through something that was benevolent and caressing, and so fear could also rest.

Renate:    Right. So in the moment the ‘me’ was gone, what was your reference point? I mean, was there all of a sudden emptiness, or did you identify with consciousness? I don’t know what the right words are… As long as we have a ‘me’, there is a reference point here [pointing to chest], and if that goes… I can imagine the ‘me’ freaks out. How do you orientate yourself?

Pamela:   You see, that’s the thing… And it’s just language that’s apparently separating, but really it was... There was no orienting, because it was as if I had never been here before, in the sense that in the absence of ‘me’ there was just innocence, and it was very fresh.

I remember the first time the wind touched my cheek: it was so new, as if I had never had that experience before. And then later that afternoon I had a mint tea and it was like “Oh, my God!” [rubbing chest]. It was extreme, because all the blocking mechanisms and the muting and the protective mechanisms weren’t there, which dulled everything down. So this openness was experiencing directly and it was quite remarkable. But it didn’t need to orient itself because it was just responding from moment to moment. And it didn’t have to know anything - it was actually ‘led’, so to speak; it was being led.

Renate:    Right. So did something after that change in your life, or the way you lived your life?

Pamela:   [sighing] You know, maybe the outward shows weren’t so different, but the experience was a complete radical change from within, yes.

Renate:    And did people recognise that you were in a different space or... [laughing]?

Pamela:   Everywhere I went people responded to me very differently than when I was playing the role of Pamela.

Renate:    That’s interesting.

Pamela:   Wherever I went I was welcomed and honoured.

Renate:    And why did you think that happened?

Pamela:   Why did they respond that way?

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   Because I didn’t have a trace of harmfulness.

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   I had no edges, I had no defences. I wasn’t [contracting body inwards]… and they can feel it. It’s very relaxing.

Renate:    So it’s almost… where you were got mirrored back?

Pamela:   Yes. So they would also join me, you see - even apparent strangers would relax and open, because they were encountering a safe being, which is rare.

Renate:    Yes. You mentioned in the chapter that you had some years of integration.

Pamela:   [whistling] Boy, did I - yes [laughing]!

Renate:    And you also mentioned that there are certain ‘rules’ in this integration. You know, there are some schools which say it’s nine years’ integration, I think; and then others say it’s two years. Papaji says it’s nine years - someone else it’s two years… How come...?

Pamela:   Well, it’s not so much rules, but each Sage speaks from their own experience. I was just pure innocence so, if I heard Papaji was seven or nine years, so be it [laughing]. But what’s lovely is it’s all so orchestrated by life. We can completely relax because you can’t really mess up the unfoldment. You really, really can’t put it all back together. It’s like Humpty-Dumpty has fallen off the wall and there’s no way you can put it back together.

Renate:    Sure.

Pamela:   And that’s a blessing, because you wouldn’t really want it all to re-crystallise and then defend itself again.

Renate:    So, how was this process of integration? You had this realisation - you were gone. How did integration happen? Who integrated, or what integrated?

Pamela:   That’s beautifully asked, because it is very mysterious. The way I can speak to that is, just as life apparently goes on with this exploration of being unique and then having denser identification, so too it also liberates itself, its own embodiment. So that would also be unique from friend to friend, right? So I could just speak of the experience here.

It was really strange because here’s no one, nothing, just pure intelligence and innocence. And yet sometimes there would be these movements of services offered, of protection or separation services, or interpretation services, comparing. All those wonderful things that allow us to be human and experience, like tribal hierarchy. And it was really strange because something would move to defend this, but awareness would become aware of it and curious. How odd that  something feels this needs to be defended.

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   And then there would be a recognition of a mild or innocent misunderstanding, and then I would soothe that movement.

Renate:    Yes. But once you experienced the ‘me’ had gone, was there ever an experience where you could be pulled back into the ‘me’…?

Pamela:   It wasn’t pulled back because, if you notice it, it’s a millisecond where the weaving will happen, or the crystallisation will happen. And there were times like that and, actually, I could relax into it and really enjoy it, because it was so other than this openness. Something would [moving hands together] tighten and then rise up into some sort of fierce reactivity. It was like, “Ah, ooh”… I feel like only the divine could do that because, if you notice there’s no time, it’s just... [makes sound with hands moving together fast]

Renate:    It’s almost a raw feeling?

Pamela:   It’s very raw, but there’s immense power in that movement. So I got curious about... Because I thought conditioning - I thought originally - was an error, right?

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   And I also thought that that movement to defend, or the movement to identify - that was an error, or some deficiency. And then I realised, “No, no, no - it’s a play!”

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   It’s the divine’s own play. So the strength in the defences - or in the anger and outrage or the reactivity - is the divine’s own strength moving to protect itself. And that became more and more notable and I got really fascinated by it.

Renate:    I think the only thing the divine wants to do is experience.

Pamela: Experience, yes. And it also loves so much it’ll move to protect its own embodiment. Until the body and the mind recognise their true nature, and then there’s not a move to defend anymore.

Renate:    So how can the body and the mind recognise the true nature?

Pamela:   Well, we definitely have noticed that the body and the mind are very intelligent, right?

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   It’s a supreme non-conceptual intelligence. So I just help them see it, because the body is also playing a role of human and object, and in our case the role of woman. But who is behind that play, who is the body, really?

Renate:    Yes. I heard somebody say once, in all our human history of finding freedom, it was never, ever found what the body really is.

Pamela:   Oh, gorgeous!

Renate:    [laughs]

Pamela:   But that is the wondering about the great mystery...

Renate:    It’s a mystery.

Pamela:   Yes. So just being curious, which is our natural talent, draws us nearer anything we’re curious about. So that is my delight: unveiling consciousness, or life, in all of its forms and functions.

Renate:    Because if the body and mind - I’m talking about the body now… if the body can wake up and realise its divinity, it would therefore move outside duality - wouldn’t that be so?

Pamela:   Hmmm.

Renate:    And why did Ramana Maharshi die suffering with cancer? Why did Nisargadatta suffer with cancer? How can that happen... to the divine? You know I can see my own conceptualising in that [laughing].

Pamela:   Yes, but it’s a very innocent, natural wondering, because this, what we are, has an affinity for gentleness; it has an affinity for rest; it has an affinity for love and enjoyment. So then curiosity - or innocence – wonders, “Why would a Sage - since the Sage is actually unlimited - not bring relief to the body?”

Renate:    That’s right.

Pamela:   That is a very old question. Now each Sage would be different, you know.

Renate:    How do you experience suffering now?

Pamela:   [sighing] Of course, it’s not comfortable, right?

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   The old movement would have been to move away from it. And this, here [indicates chest], moves towards it, to cradle it, or permeate it, or soothe it, so...

Renate:    So everything is taken care of [laughing]?

Pamela:   Yes. I had this funny experience two weeks ago, where I bought a supplement that I’d never had before and got a headache. So it was so strange to have a headache, and I just soothed it and permeated it.

Renate:    Yes. So let me come back to this integration as I’m personally interested in that... I’m also a fan of Adyashanti and...

Pamela:   Yes [smiling] - everyone is.

Renate:    And I was reading that you... are you too [laughing]?

Pamela:   Oh, he’s enchanting!

Renate:    So you know him?

Pamela:   [nodding] Mmmm.

Renate:    Well, I only listen to his CDs. He is talking about that we have this realisation and then we actually have to start living what is revealed to us. But you seem to see it a little bit differently; you see it as we don’t have to do anything.

Pamela:   Yes. In the beginning there’s some tinkering, I notice, with lots of friends; they’re going to help the unfoldment along. And that’s our innocence. Now what we’ll notice is the body will give us feedback instantly if we’re following a conditioned behaviour.

Renate:    How will the body do that?

Pamela:   Well, it will contract, won’t it?

Renate:    Oh, right. So what you have to realise is that you will contract [laughing]?

Pamela:   Well, you can’t help but feel it, no?

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   There you go.

Renate:    If you are in your forties [laughing]!

Pamela:   [laughing] Right.

Renate:    A lot of people these days experience something up there somewhere [pointing to head].

Pamela:   Yes. But your body will escalate the signal. So what’s so lovely is there is a homing signal, so to speak, for what’s true, yes. And the more and more this listening within is cultivated, the more you are drawn or respond from what you know is true, from what resonates, really. The dissonance jangles [shaking body from side to side]; it doesn’t feel right. So it’s incredibly simple. It’s no different than when we eat a certain food for a while, but then the body says, “No, thank you”. And we might ignore that, override it - and the body protests. The same here: we can override or ignore but, after a while, the body won’t let you stray, so to speak.

Renate:    So, let’s see how I understand it. I’m just fascinated by what you said earlier about bringing the body into divinity.

Pamela:   Well, it already is divine, it’s Life itself, and it has a far more ancient intelligence than the mind does.

Renate:    It also has, on a cellular level, all the information of our ‘me’, of our contraction and suffering. How can you release that?

Pamela:   OK. Of course, we want to help the body let go of the past. Now it’s kind of fun to look into the true nature of conditioning. You said at the cellular level there’s all the information… we could say encoding.

Renate:    Yes, but you also worked with that for some time in your release.

Pamela:   Yes, before this shift.

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   Yes, but what if conditioning is formless? Now the body is also - the scientists say - made of space. So space is apparently holding conditioning, which is also made of space.

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   Now just for a moment, as warm compassion, just adore that space, as the body was willing to give that service, it was willing to contract so you could play a role. Conditioning was willing to come out of its naturalness, allow itself to be imprinted in service to you experiencing. Now it’s tired, right? So, just for a moment, adore it.

Renate:    Yes, I can see that’s pure compassion.

Pamela:   Yes. And what is felt?

Renate:    I guess what comes here [touching heart] is so feminine [laughing].

Pamela:   [laughing]

Renate:    I just remembered again, as I flicked through this book, there is a chapter on Eckhart Tolle, and he said, “Women are so much closer to enlightenment than men” [laughing]. I was curious - how are we closer? And he said, because we are apparently closer to our hearts. And that’s what I just felt very strongly when you said this... this embracing...

Pamela:   Well, all beings are close to this, because we’re just pretending not to be our naturalness. Wisdom can bring us half the way, so to speak. We realise we’re not who we thought we were and, actually, nothing is as it appears to be. In the seeing of even the grace in the movement of identification, or the grace in the movement of separation, there can be a softening. And then the body just invites us to permeate. There was a price paid for contracting, for playing a role: the experience of separation from naturalness and happiness. We could bow in gratitude to this mind, the supreme intelligence that contracted into a small object to give identification services and… Could we thank it?

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   Yes, anything I bring this warm touch or warm gaze to, returns to its naturalness. Before, I was bringing harsh wisdom to everything and everything would tighten.

Renate:    Yes. What you just said reminds me that it is so important that we stop in our lives, to become aware of this, to bring all this into our awareness, into love, and embrace it all. But we are running...

Pamela:   Yes, big rush.

Renate:    ...all the time. I guess we are, as a human race, living in very challenging times. How do you see that from where you are? [laughing] I think we have a big wake-up call coming!

Pamela:   Yes.

Renate:    Looking back to your process, would you say that anything you did helped you to wake up? Or would you say it was just...? A lot of people we have on Conscious TV said nothing worked, you cannot do anything, it’s all grace.

Pamela:   [laughing] Well, you see, maybe we could expand our idea about what grace is, because there’s a grace in frustration and there’s a grace in dissatisfaction and there’s a grace in unhappiness and there’s a grace in exhaustion. And I once heard someone say, a long time ago… a really ancient Sage said, “The sole purpose of spiritual practice is to keep the mind from taking the body away from the Sage”.

If you can hang out with someone who’s resting, it’s the fastest way home, because everyone else will give you homework. In the old days, apparently, people needed homework, because the mind would say, “OK, I’m getting value here, we’re making some progress”, and wouldn’t take innocence away from the Sage. Because really it’s all about the deep resting invitation that is a Sage. It’s nothing fancy - it’s like you can just go sit with a tree and, if you really can feel the tree, relax into that which it’s offering, it’s the same thing. As you said… stopping, slowing down, just being here.

Renate:    How can you get the mind to rest?

Pamela:   Oh, actually it’s really simple.

Renate:    [laughs]

Pamela:   [laughing] The mind is agitated because it’s seeking rest, right? But it’s looking for rest in the world, not looking for rest at the centre of its very own self.

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   It’s looking for more wisdom or clarity, because it has got itself tied up in a little yogic knot up here... We know the mind is intelligent.

Renate:    Sometimes [laughing].

Pamela:   [laughs]

Renate:    If you look at the human race, you know, close to extinction, it doesn’t look intelligent! It can be intelligent, yes.

Pamela:   Well, if it’s formless, the mind... You can only condition something that has a form. The mind has no form, so it’s pretending to be conditioned, it’s pretending to be limited. It actually never was conditioned and it’s not what it appears to be. The play is, if you meet it with respect, then it will show you the true nature. If you try and pressure the mind in any way, it will push back, right?

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   Just like all of us. So just in this moment, bow to your mind.

Renate:    It makes it collapse.

Pamela:   [laughs]

Renate:    [laughing] How am I going to finish the interview?

Pamela:   You need no mind to function.

Renate:    It just was... [gesturing collapsing motion with hands]

Pamela:   There you go.

Renate:    Finally I can relax.

Pamela:   That’s it, that’s it. We ask nothing of it, but just honour it and it finds its own way.

Renate:    But do we not need to think about things?

Pamela:   Does the breath think in order to breathe?

Renate:    No. None of our bodily functions do.

Pamela:   Very nice, big clue. Do mountains think? We were even actually frightened into thinking in school and into holding data, yes, just to maintain a role, really. But this naturalness...

Renate:    You know, I learned - I don’t know where I learned it -that, if we see this body as a machine, spirit or consciousness is expressing itself… I always called the material world God’s dress...

Pamela:   Nice.

Renate:    ...and consciousness becomes visible. Then the more we are trained, the more our brain is trained and the better our mind is functioning, the more widely can consciousness express itself in the material world.

Pamela:   Ah, yes.

Renate:    Is this so?

Pamela:   Well, what’s your experience?

Renate:    It is actually my experience. I used to work with people, you know, and if I had somebody in my group who really had a brilliant mind, who was trained… and if he got it, it was a whole chain reaction. If he was at the top of a company, it was a whole chain reaction down; and he had the ability to widen it into form. So, from that perspective, I feel it is good to train, or to challenge ourselves, and to study and to learn. I mean, it’s all a play.

Pamela:   Yes, absolutely. This curiosity that we are adores learning, which is just its following its own curiosity. As life itself, there’s a thinking that’s not small and requires no sound, just responding really.

Renate:    Right.

Pamela:   In this moment there’s no thinking - being is just responding.

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   I would suggest that’s how all great artists and natural beings are living: it’s just the joy of natural responding from moment to moment. If you watch a little child, they’re just following their feet and their eyes and their nose and their curiosity, right? And we’re the same.

Renate:    I have a two-year-old granddaughter and I can see she’s still in unity, because she says to me, “What is Lorraine doing?” She doesn’t say, “What am I doing?” - she says, “What is Lorraine playing?” It’s like [laughing] she talks about this entity and doesn’t connect it with herself. And I want to treasure that…

Pamela:   Yes, to cherish and protect it.

Renate:    Yes. It’s beautiful.

Pamela:   [nodding]

Renate:    Pamela, we are coming to an end, and have to wrap up this interview. Is there any advice you can give us, any suggestions? Is there anything you would like to add to this interview?

Pamela:   Well, let’s see. The burden of this return back to naturalness is not on us - it’s life’s pleasure; life’s pleasure to play the role and then relax out of it. Know that there’s full support as we return back into our naturalness. We actually can relax. It does help to be curious about our true nature, it does help to go to Satsang, it does help to sit in the park. Know that you will be led uniquely back to this naturalness.

Renate:    I just have to recognise, or follow the leading.

Pamela:   The clues, that’s it. It’s a great treasure hunt, you know, and we’re the treasure so...

Renate:    So who is doing the seeking if nobody is there?

Pamela:   Well, I would suggest it was the body and the mind; more so the mind because it wanted the ultimate relief.

Renate:    …that gave me a beautiful picture… in the centre of our ‘me’, there is still paradise; and way, way back, the ‘me’ remembers the paradise. The ‘me’ doesn’t know how to get back there and, through the seeking, it comes closer and closer to paradise. And it’s ready to surrender.

Pamela:   Well, its nature is I Am. The ‘me’ is the great mimic of ‘beingness’ and it does remember, so it’s returning to its true nature, too. So really we can all relax - it happens by itself. It’s seasons in consciousness: there was a season of identification, and then an apparent season of non-identification, and then the return to resting, prior to identification or non-identification, just here.

Renate:    Yes. Would you say meditation helps in this process? In this driven world, we are driven too… because the ‘me’ tries to survive; I think that’s the reason… What can we do to help this process of coming back and relaxing?

Pamela:   You see, you just spoke it, “Coming back and relaxing”. Anything that you can do to support your body and mind in relaxing is going to be very helpful.

Renate:    Yes. I read also in your chapter that you say it is probably necessary to find... somebody who is already at peace, and sit. So you trust in the lineage.

Pamela:   Yes, it’s not so much trusting in the lineage, but it’s trusting in the vibratory rate of naturalness. The same feeling we get when we’re hiking, or we’re deep in the forest, of that sense of well-being and nothing to do, nowhere to go: it’s embodied in what we call the Sage. You know, if I wanted to learn tennis, I would go to a great tennis teacher. If I wanted to return to an effortless serenity, I’d go hang out and… It doesn’t mean sitting with someone - you might just want to take a walk with somebody who has relaxed into serenity.

Renate:    It’s about training the muscle of silence [laughing].

Pamela:   [laughing] Or un-training... absolutely. Once again, it’s resonance: the way would be different for each one of us.

Renate:    Yes. I have to say, it’s not easy to find a teacher who is resting… [laughing]

Pamela:   Oh really? Well, I have a whole list [laughing].

Renate:    In my experience there are some teachers out there who say beautiful words but then, if you look at how they live life, you actually realise… “Oh dear!” They still have too many blind spots they’re trying to channel the truth through [laughing].

Pamela:   Oh gosh! Well, here is a lack of resonance, and you would just wander out of that gathering. You see?

Renate:    It’s good [laughing]. I like the way you see it - all... from grace.

Pamela:   Yes, it is grace, because I’ve gone to Satsangs where I didn’t resonate - and that’s grace because I don’t keep going there.

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   And I go someplace else where - “Oh!” [hand on heart]  -there is just sweet, deep rest; and I am going to return there and keep sitting. It’s no different than your favourite soup.

Renate:    Yes. It’s so true. I mean, we are so fast in realising what we don’t have, and are not very often grateful and seeing how grace is already acting in our lives.

Pamela:   Oh yes.

Renate:    Yes. That I’m sitting here and you’re sitting here, and people can tune in and it’s all grace, it’s all happening.

Pamela:   Yes, yes [laughing].

Renate:    Is there anything else? [laughing]

Pamela:   No, all there is, is this.

Renate:    We have a few minutes left.

Pamela:   It’s so surprising, all the things, the errors, when we look back… Thought could say that was an error, but it brings us here.

Renate:    Yes.

Pamela:   There is a wisdom that’s very quirky in life. It is not something that we can understand, because it is immense and flexible and spontaneous with such a huge view. And it knows best what the medicine in the moment is. Sometimes a bitter medicine, and sometimes it’s a “Ah!”… extremely sweet.

Renate:    Isn’t it amazing how life… I mean, how did it all start [laughing]?

Pamela:   [laughs]

Renate:    It’s just... [shaking head]

Pamela:   It’s breathtaking.

Renate:    Yes. As I’m sitting here I’m moving into collapsed mind... [laughing]

Pamela:   This is good news.

Renate:    So ...I feel I’m tuning into your vibration.

Pamela:   Oh, it’s the same.

Renate:    And it’s taking over and… Well, yes, thank you for coming, Pamela.


To watch the original video interview click here. This transcript is included in the book: "Conversations on Non-Duality: 26 Awakenings" published by Cherry Red Books. The book is available from, and as a kindle edition.

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