Ginger Gilmour – Bright Side of the Moon
Interview by Iain McNay
Iain: Hello and welcome once more to Conscious TV. My name is Iain McNay and my guest today is Ginger Gilmour.
Ginger: Hi Iain.
Iain: And I found a book. I always look through the magazine of the Scientiﬁc and Medical Network and they have a network magazine every few months and I always scour that for interesting books and I found this book ‘Memoirs of the Bright Side of the Moon’, which I thought ‘interesting subject, interesting title, interesting person’. So invited Ginger along to the studio, we’ve got lots to cover. She’s had a very fascinating and also up and down life and we’re going to just go through her life and see what she learned and see who she is now.
So, in 1971 you met somebody and it was love at ﬁrst sight.
Ginger: It was, yes.
Iain: Just tell us what happened.
Ginger: I lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and the people I lived with had tickets to go to see this group, Pink Floyd, and they wanted me to come. And it was hard for them to get me to go, because I wasn’t in to all
those things then, but I decided I would and there as I sat alone in our seat, because they were big ﬁsh in a little pond – they went back stage – and I just watched these English people, men, walking around, setting up the gear, in their English outﬁts, when the band CAME on.
Iain: English outﬁts?
Ginger: Yes, their rock and roll outfits. They had ‘GO HILL’ boots, bright colours, or snake skin and ‘GRANNY-TAKES-A-TRIP’ velvet jackets of all kinds of colours and tight black Sterling Cooper jeans – all the fashion apparently then – and different T-Shirts.
And after – the gig was just…! The music was incredible, just incredible, they had sound around and it was an experience of oneness for me.
Iain: So you experienced oneness at the gig?
Ginger: With the audience, yes. The audience – they had sound in the round and what they were playing lifted my spirits. And I certainly felt a union with the oneness. I mean I had taken alternative drugs early on, LSD and things, and so I knew when that would be happening amongst people, certainly within me.
And after the show was over, I was very elated and we all went backstage. And again they were all running around talking to everybody and I was standing alone. And fortunately one of my customers – because I had a paraphernalia boutique – was there so I could talk to somebody.
And the next thing you know Dave Gilmour comes up to me, big blue eyes, looks me straight in the eye and says, ”Hi, I’m David”. And, the next few days, we invited them to various events, one of which was a roller skating party in Detroit. From Ann Arbor, we drove down there, had them in the car and um… What was interesting is Orson Welles’ ‘War of the Worlds’ was on the radio and they came in to it after it had started and they – Alice Cooper had given them some mind altering drugs – and they were high and they thought the Martians were landing by the time they got to Detroit.
I was in a different car and I was a really a good roller skater and later on, after I came back to England with Dave, his manager told me that David was saying, “Coo, she’s a dream on wheels!” So that’s how we started. I wound up being on the road for two weeks, the end of the tour.
Iain: But it was love at ﬁrst sight, you say in the book, for you.
Ginger: Yeah. And him. Yep.
Iain: He was like a Prince Charming.
Ginger: He was my Prince Charming. [laughs]
Iain: Yeah—yeah. So here started a whole catapult out of your life…
Ginger: Change, yeah.
Iain: … into… The band at that time, they were – because you met in 71, looking at my notes here – they had ‘Atom Heart Mother’ out,
‘Relics’ had been released. And then they were working on ‘Meddle’ at that time I think at that time, or touring ‘Meddle’.
Ginger: They were touring ‘Medal’, yeah.
Iain: So it was relatively early days but they were still a pretty successful band.
Ginger: Well, I don’t know, they were building. They became very successful on ‘Dark Side of the Moon’.
Ginger: ‘Money’ took them to a higher level. They were much more an underground band in some ways.
Ginger: The normal press and people – Rolling Stones didn’t get on with them at all then, you know.
Iain: But there was a moment when you were lying next to David – do you want to talk a bit about…? You knew you were meant to be with him.
Ginger: Yes, that was something I’ll never forget!
We had left the after-gig party – we were in Montreal – and we were sleeping and I woke up and there was this amazing light in the room and I looked at David and he was the image of Christ and it was ‘OK this was a sign’. But I didn’t know about signs then, looking back on it. I know the experience. And I said, “Right, I’m meant to be doing what I’m doing”.
Iain: And so that gave you, somehow, the conﬁrmation to be with him, and…?
Ginger: Mm hm. We were on the road then and when he said, “Do you want to come back to England?” I said, “OK, I’ll dare,” left everything behind and went.
Iain: Yes. Yeah. And you say in the book: my heart was big and The Floyd’s music opened it further.
Ginger: Yeah, it did.
Iain: What was it about… not so much about the music but how did you feel your heart opened further? Apart from being in love. What was happening in terms of you, and how you saw reality, and how you felt?
Ginger: I think it’s constantly being touched by this oneness through the music and then my creativity was opening up. And whenever you touch your own creativity of your soul process – although I would never have called it then, that – I was just discovering something that later I would know that I had the soul of an artist, and I had to live that.
Iain: Did you ﬁnd when they made different albums that that affected you in terms of your own feelings?
Ginger: Yeah. I mean we… The group were very much a gestalt. And, as time progressed, everyone had their relationship, their family, their children and all of that started to integrate and the fame started to affect us as well. Having to have pseudonyms – is that the right word for fake names?
Iain: Yes, yeah, fake names, yeah.
Ginger: And you just… I know Dave and I struggled to stay human and when ‘Dark Side of the Moon’ brought in such fame and we had an income coming in greater than what – he wanted to put it in the bank. He didn’t want to invest but it was just getting so accelerated that they would invest.
It was just something so different on the material level to be adjusted to. You know, I thought I was going to be a chemical engineer or an actress because I could do both. And, suddenly, here I am a rock and roll wife.
Ginger: And living a growing life of fame in the material world.
But The Floyd saved me so many times. Just their music, what would happen in the audience for me was more than… I loved the Rolling Stones and Deep Purple and stuff but The Floyd had a more ethereal experience for me which opened up a door for me, to live.
Can you talk more about that?
Ginger: We are more than this physical body and we’re more than our possessions. And, though our possessions were increasing at the time, there was something else that called us that they stood for, and I stood for. But it was unspeakable, in a way. We weren’t on a noticeable spiritual path, at the time, but there were qualities of being human that we stood for and that, for me, means that we have to value more than this physical universe that we think is our personal reality.
There’s your emotions, and there’s your mind, and there’s the soul, and then there’s so much more – the God-realm beyond that. That we have created a very small box that most people live in, and they’re not happy – they’re striving, longing – and I was being fulfilled without realising it at the time.
Iain: So you had all this material success, all the trappings. You had fame…
Ginger: It grew to be that, yeah. But we all, David and I particularly. Even amongst The Floyd kept it more simple. We didn’t go out on the yachts and buy the horses, and…
Iain: But you were realising, despite the fact that you had this success, if you like, on different levels, that there was still something else that was important.
Ginger: Yeah. At first it was very much the human values and then, as my life progressed, I realised that there was the soul and that I wanted to dedicate my personality to humanity. But I had to develop all the different levels so that my personality could do what God lead me to do as a messenger. I didn’t realise that I was going to be an angle grinder up a step ladder carving a 10 foot angel but, I’m very happy for that. [both laugh]
Iain: So something quite significant happened in 1977. There’s a lot in your book, it’s 600 pages so I have to, kind of, dive in and out in terms of pulling out what we can talk about in a finite time in interview. You woke up one morning, you’d been, obviously, touring, by that time you had had, was it, two or three children by that time was it? 1977?
Ginger: Just one.
Iain: One, OK. But you were exhausted and you were paralysed – you had this pain –
Ginger: From the waist down.
Iain: – paralysed from the waist down. That must have been pretty terrifying!
Ginger: Yeah! It was. To wake up and not feel that you could move out of the bed.
Ginger: Do you want me to tell you more?
Iain: Yes. What happened? What did you do?
Ginger: I cried and shook David and said, “I can’t move. I can’t move.”
When we were on tour, Snowy White, the second guitarist’s, wife had been healed of a woman problem by an Indian Ayurvedic doctor, called Dr Sharma, in London. So I just said, “Dave, we have to see this man. Please can you find him?” So he finally organised an appointment and we went. I had seen a physiotherapist that helped reduce the pain and my doctor had given me some painkillers so that I could actually manage to get there.
And Dr Sharma put me away into his naturopathic hospital for several weeks. And David took care of Ellis. And he said that – we went to Hawaii between the southern and the northern tour, just previous to this. And we were on Kauai and it was so beautiful and both of us nearly didn’t come back because it was just precious. The Aloha spirit is really love and we didn’t want to leave it and the children were amazing and their parties and so beautiful and the light was within, just shining around them, and things, and so we came back. But what we had chosen to do was stop eating meat. I chose to stop drinking alcohol and taking any marijuana or cocaine or anything that was there that we always only did it a little. And what happened was that, I was detoxing so that my kidneys and liver… my whole body was like, “Aaagh!” All this poison was being released and it spasmed. So Dr Sharma put me on chamomile tea and grapefruit for a while.
Iain: Fairly restrictive diet, isn’t it?
Ginger: Very! And I had shiatsu and other massages and things, and he gave me lots of different homeopathic remedies and things, and I discovered meditation. And it started to… it was a spiritual sign post, for sure.
Yeah! And how was meditation to start with? Did that come easily for you?
Ginger: No. It took me years to be able to do that – to do it properly. But it was the silence – I would sit in front of the window watching the rain and the pine forest, the drops, the beautiful rain drops and things, and just sat in silence more than anything. I see now that it was a meditation but not a conscious one like I do now.
Iain: Mm. And the question ‘Who am I?’ came up for you at that time, didn’t it?
Ginger: It did, yep. One of my therapists introduced me to the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and that’s one of the questions he asked, “Who Am I?” Dr Sharma also followed Ramana Maharshi.
Iain: It’s a great question, isn’t it: “Who am I?”
Ginger: Mm hm. Yep.
Iain: What happens if I ask you, “Who am I?” now. If I ask you, “Who are you?” now?
Ginger: [laughs] I think I’m getting a better idea of that. [both laugh]
I’ve gone through a lot of phases to answer that question. Now I would say that I am a child of God and a messenger of beauty. I still have a long way to go to perfect it.
Iain: Mm. It can be a long journey, can’t it, sometimes?
Ginger: Well, Cecil Collins, my art teacher, said he would sooner be a man on a journey with a vision than not.
Ginger: And that’s what I feel.
Iain: You went to – I’m just pulling things out the book that I find interesting – you went to a lecture by Sir George Trevelyan. And you hugged him and you had quite an experience, didn’t you?
Ginger: Yeah, yeah! He was a very elegant man – I didn’t know much about him but my therapist, Michael, said, “Come!” David was away so he said, “come and meet Sir George. Come to his lecture”.
Again I was still quite the novice and there he was, this very elegant English man, and Michael introduced me and he hugged me and, during that hug, it was like I was transported into a universe, I was travelling in the stars. I’d never had that experience before, even on LSD. It was so real. And he pulled me apart and shook me to bring me back because he knew I was out of my body. And then uh, years later, I met him again and told him about it and he says, “What I love about England in this time period is that I can hug beautiful women and get away with it.”
Iain: Yeah. Did those kind of experiences, did they stay with you in terms of – I don’t mean all the time you felt like that, but did they stay with you in terms that they somehow changed your outlook on how you saw things?
Ginger: I would say I was evolving and… transforming – but transforming sounds like you just go into some incredible change of who you are. For me it’s like I built on, I expanded my reality and that’s what we are: you have this physical body and emotions, and the mind and that personality vehicle and then, as you start to expand… and I came up with this word ‘refinement’. I was refining who I was. You’re expanding but you’re getting so gentle, and kind, and wise, and precious. That’s what it feels like has happened to me and I discovered that’s what I am, that’s who I am.
Iain: Wise and precious are nice words. You don’t often hear the word ‘precious’ in spiritual circles but it is, that’s right.
Ginger: We are!
Iain: There’s something very precious about life. Yeah.
Ginger: We all are!
Iain: Human spirit.
Ginger: The heart is so pure, really. It’s a gift that’s in here. It’s not something you have to search for, or work for. You just have to be it, feel it.
Ginger: And all these experiences have brought me closer and closer to knowing: that’s what it is; that’s what I am; that’s what we are.
Iain: Yeah. And amazingly… you had this period where you had some financial troubles and you had to go into tax exile, for a time?
Ginger: Yes. Yes, we did.
Iain: And then you found some very special places to meditate then, didn’t you, I think?
Ginger: Yeah, um…
Iain: The hidden Zen temple when you were…
Ginger: When they were working on the… hang on a minute…
Iain: In 77.
Ginger: Yeah… Where did we go? We went to Lindos and then we went to LA… Mm… Special places with nature.
Iain: Anyway, that’s something I picked up from the book, that you liked to find special places to meditate…
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: …and you were very good at doing that, somehow.
Ginger: Yes, yes. The communion with nature became very special moments, particularly when The Floyd were doing ‘The Wall’ album. They were having such conflicts and such difficulty. And I was pregnant with my second child. And I would go out and I would walk among the mimosa and the dew drops and found this amazing… where we were staying in south of France. This, like, Grand Canyon was before me after coming through the pine trees. And there it was! And all the pine trees on the side of the cavern were, like, bonsai. And so every day I would sit there, and I was wanting silence, and talked to my baby, and loved David when I saw him and prayed for him, and The Floyd.
Iain: What’s coming across to me is that, actually, you were trying to lead quite a simple life in a world that was, actually, quite a crazy world you were living in.
Ginger: David very much is like that too, in his nature.
Iain: He wants to live a simple life, you mean.
Ginger: He always went for a more simple situation.
Iain: Yes. Yeah.
Ginger: If he had the chance.
Iain: That was one of the bonds that kept you together, I guess.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: Yeah. But it’s so difficult when you're living at that level to find simplicity.
Iain: Do you want to say anything more about that, or…?
Ginger: [laughs] No. Ask another question.
Iain: OK. So, in 1983 you met Irina Tweedie.
Iain: And I think you met her because you were doing Alexander lessons…
Iain: …and then you discovered her book, ‘Chasm of Fire’.
Iain: And, I’ve pulled out from the book: the first time you met her you knew there was a truly great being stood in front of you.
Ginger: I had this Alexander lesson and saw the book, and asked Diane, “Who is this?” and she said, “She gives meditation – it’s not classes it was just you can come and meditate with her and discuss dreams.” And I said, “Oh. When is it? Where is it?” And she said, “It’s up in northern London and you have to find your own way there.” So, it took me a little while, with having three children by then, to get it together – running houses and everything that I had to do – to get to her. And, the day that I came to her, I went to knock on the door and she opened it before I knocked and she said, “Come in, we’ve been waiting for you.”
Iain: And she didn’t know you were coming – well, not in an obvious way.
Ginger: No. But I’ve read since that lots of spiritual teachers know this, you know, often. I had that one.
Iain: And, when you said that there was this special being stood in front of you, what was so special about her? What did you feel that was so different?
Ginger: First off, she was very radiant. She had light around her…
Ginger: …and there was this calmness and yet there was a wisdom. She could look straight into you and know who you are but she wouldn’t hurt you, she was a guide. Again, that was still something, still, very new. I can articulate that now but then it was just happening.
Ginger: And I just felt at home. Everyone was lying down on the floor. She said, “Forget all that sitting in lotus, and all that, just lie on the floor.” And that’s what we did. And a lot of people snored but still… [both laugh]
Iain: And she would give talks and answer questions?
Ginger: First we’d meditate and we would tell dreams. She would ask dreams, she would interpret them and have other people interpret them. I remember one day she said, “Ginger come here.” She had two black comfy chairs and she had me sit there. And a lot of people were very envious whenever someone was gifted to sit in this chair. And she, sometimes, would look at whoever was sitting there – in this case it was me – and start, almost, telling you off, what you should be doing. And it’s like ‘that’s not me! What’s she talking about?’ but I learned that she would talk to someone… talk to the floor [indicates one space] so the door will listen [indicates another space]. So somebody in that room had this situation, but, if she went straight to that person, that person wouldn’t get it and would go into defence, perhaps. So she wanted that person to listen so she would say whatever it was to the person in the chair!
Iain: And what did you feel got from her? OK, there was this space to meditate that was very relaxed but what did you get practically in terms of your own development and education from her?
Ginger: I learned to love being here. She sat me down once and said, “Ginger, you and I have something very much in common,” I said, “What?” and she says, “I didn’t want to be here first either.” And then it was, like, the more that I discovered who I was, the less fear would control me or false desires. I had a quest, took years to build that strength to where you could be in the middle of the storm and still feel joy.
Iain: Mm. That’s a bit of a key isn’t it? If you can be in the middle of the storm and feel joy you really are sorted, in one way, in terms of living, especially our crazy modern living.
Ginger: Yes! Yes. What I have found in my own journey, in regards to that, as I touched more of my soul purpose – and also that expansion beyond the physical personality – you become even more sensitive to the storm. You go through different phases where you, um... There are denizens out there, you have to learn how to…
What I’m finding, the more that I focus as God’s messenger the less… it’s not just the storm of the world, there’s something that tries to stop mankind from touching the greatness that we can be. And you start to have a different experience with life that you have to learn how to be that warrior and still hold love.
Ginger: But love is very strong, but it’s a matter of getting to what that is. When I was meditating before… The reason why I wrote this book is because one of my teachers came to me in the night, while I was meditating, and said, “Ginger, you must write your story of love.”
Ginger: And it took me a couple of years before I said “Yes” to doing it.
Iain: So, just to go back to – you call her ‘Mrs Tweedie’ at lot in the book, so… so, she said she’d met three enlightened people in her lifetime: her teacher, Guruji, one she wasn’t prepared to name, and Cecil Collins. And she suggested you go and spend some time with Cecil Collins.
Ginger: Yes. To join his classes.
Iain: What was he like?
Ginger: A character.
Ginger: He used to sit in the back. He had a hump. And he always wore a tweed coat with a little vest. And he had these little glasses and he looked like a bird that was really watching you. And, one day, I came into the class bouncing on with my American spirit and he ducks. He said, “One day, Ginger, you’ll have a real smile on your face.”
And he put me through – I was expert doing little drawings – perfect – of the model, and it took him a while to finally break that to where… I remember the day that the blob appeared where I’d let go, because I was – I just could do it, no matter what position he put the class in, or what… We’d be painting with the left hand and with the brush of the different colour in this [right] hand. Or you’d have it in your mouth and he’d be swirling you around within a certain minute and he’d be down, counting from 10 down, and I’d still have a perfect drawing. And the day that I finally let go started something new for me.
Iain: Mm. He talked about ‘art could unlock the door’.
Iain: It was obviously helping to unlock your doors.
Ginger: Yes, he did.
Iain: He also wanted you to ‘catch the soul in its return to paradise’.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: A lovely thing to say too.
Ginger: What that has come to mean for me is that when I – part of my soul nature is that I have to create. That’s a gift that god gave me that I know now that I need to do, for humanity, as a service. And his lessons took me into a place where you’re open to listen to the divine. So that what’s born is what will be created… meant to be born from God, for all of us.
So that when you look at these images – and many of us are inspired to create from that viewpoint or that experience, really – on the subliminal level, the person touches that in themselves, because they know that it’s real. And everyone’s got it, except they don’t realise it. And we need to create new images to be looking at. Part of the spiritual process, it’s really important, what images you look at, what you think, what you do. What are you creating just walking down the street?
Iain: It reminds me, that, I should have said this at the beginning, that in your book, there’s lots of wonderful images, which I can’t show now because we can’t move the cameras, but we’ll put some images at the end of the programme.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: And you also – I didn’t know you when I ordered the book, but I got these wonderful images, some with you and David, you and David there, one with you now.
Iain: Images are very important to you.
Ginger: To all of us. It does affect us.
Ginger: And we don’t realise how much it affects us.
So you entered a spiritual crisis.
Ginger: I did.
Ginger: Do you want to me to tell you about it?
Sadly, David and I separated, chose to separate. And what we were living was so much a dream come true for me. And with my spiritual path and discovery that I was an artist and I was being so fulfilled, doing that, and suddenly it all just changed. Stopped. And we had a house on the Thames and I was sitting by the river and I couldn’t go on, I didn’t know how to go on. And then suddenly I heard the kids in the garden, they were just home from school, and I just – I was about to jump in the river.
Ginger: And they don’t realise – and they might once they read the book, if they ever do – that they saved their mom that day. Just their laughter in the garden.
Iain: It was a very human thing from your own children.
Ginger: Yeah. I love them.
Iain: Yeah. And you had 4 children by this time.
Ginger: I did, yes, 4 of them.
Ginger: Matthew was three at the time, the little guy.
And – I’m just reading, again, quotes from your book: you sent a message to Mrs. Tweedie and she said, “One day you and love will take the place of all your fears.”
Ginger: Mm. But she also said that Guruji told her that, “one day, Irina, you will not need love in the same way ever.”
Ginger: I didn’t know what that really meant but I’m getting an idea now.
Ginger: It’s a universal uniting principle that holds everything together. Every molecule is held by love. But it’s beyond the personal love that we all desire – even the love of the mobile phone or all the things… I’m always joking about shoes and coats will be the last thing I’ll surrender before enlightenment. But really there’s this aspect of surrender I’ve always been contemplating what that really meant. And what I’ve discovered is that… the surrender’s really surrendering to what is your soul purpose. And then all the emotions, and mind, and your body, your daily living – I call it the art of living – is a tool, dedicated to the highest, by whatever name is sent to you to call it.
And a lot of people panic ‘oh my god, I won’t be able to have a coat again because I’m on a spiritual path!’ It’s not like that. Even wearing make up, it’s a matter of ‘do you wear make up to put on a mask or do you do it to empower the beauty of who you are?’ The shining that comes out of your eyes.
Iain: So, I want to try and get a bit more of your story in and… One time you were in New York and you had a session with Dr Werner Engel, who was head of the New York Jungian Society.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: And that started again a very important new phase in your life, didn’t it?
Ginger: It did. Mrs Tweedie had written her second book and Dr Engel had said he would write her preface.
Ginger: Yeah. So she said, “I know you’re going on tour to New York City, can you take the book to Dr Engel?” and I said, “Certainly.” So I called Dr Engel up and he says, “Yes, Engel here,” and I said, “Mrs Tweedie’s asked for me to bring her book to you.” “Yes, can you come 10 o’clock,” rock and roll, 10 o’clock in the morning, New York City. “OK, I’ll be there.”
So he had a flat very near to where John Lennon had his flat and it had a very long corridor. A lovely lady answered the door – the corridor was so long and it was filled with different pictures, and diplomas, and um – but I was more interested in the bookshelf down the end. So I was looking at the different titles and things until, finally, he comes out. And he had one monocle and he brought me into this room. It was like something out of ‘Bell, Book and Candle’! The aspidistra, the lace curtains, the books and the manuscripts piled up on this huge desk, and we sat in these two chairs there.
And he says, “Did you see all my diplomas on the wall?” and I said, “Yes, but I didn’t look at them, I was more interested in your books, Dr Engel. Why?” And he says, “I’m a marriage counsellor.” And I said, “Oh that’s really nice.” And he says, “If you ever need me, call me.” And, of course, at that point I didn’t have any idea that we –
Iain: This was before you broke up.
Ginger: Yeah. Long before… not long – it was the ‘Animals’ tour.
But what was special about him, that meeting at that point, was that he said, “Ginger, I have this wish to understand how rock and roll music affects the psyche of the person going to the concerts. Do you think you can help me with that?” and I said, “Well, I think I could do that. When are you available?” Because we were in town for 4 days.
So I sent a car for him and brought him into the bowels of Madison Square Garden. And he came before the audience came in and we walked around and he was fascinated about everything. All the engineers and everybody was just amazed that it wasn’t just Hayley Mills or, you know, Mick Jagger, famous people coming in… Philosophers and Tibetan lamas, and spiritual people – Mrs Tweedie came to the concerts on those tours & in London.
Iain: Yes, yeah.
Ginger: So, they were in awe that these people were coming. Anyway, at the end, backstage he said, “Ginger I don’t know if you would agree with me but that place that we seek to reach in meditation, your husband’s group does that for their audience.” And that’s what I mean, that’s what always touched me. It was being acknowledged by a very wise person. That, most of all, they create harmony out of transforming chaos.
Iain: Transforming chaos into beauty.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: That, of course, took you back to your experience of the first Floyd gig, all those years ago, when you met David…
Ginger: And every Floyd gig. It happened so many times, mm.
Iain: Even though there was disharmony, at times, with the band members, somehow it comes together…
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: I remember I did an interview with Jenny Boyd, who previously – you probably knew her, actually?
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: And she wrote a book called ‘It’s Not Only Rock and Roll’ and she interviewed lots of musicians, very much about where their creative genius came from and what it was like to be on stage. And she would talk about this: there might be differences in the band but they get on stage and they get into a certain zone…
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: … and there’s a togetherness there and that really reverberates around the audience, this togetherness.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: Brings everybody closer and gives everybody a taste of the experience of the oneness that, actually, we’re all seeking. And we don’t know it some of the time.
Ginger: And we can each find it in our various ways, if we all open up to what our individual soul purpose is.
Iain: Yes, yeah.
Ginger: And mine’s through art and the art of living.
Iain: And Dr Engels also told you, when you were having the sessions on the phone and you were in difficulties with your marriage, that you were breaking through not breaking down.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: It must have been very helpful when he explained that to you.
Ginger: That was amazing.
Ginger: When I got back to England, I took him up on this offer and, it was before Skype, so we’d do phone calls. I would call him in New York from England and I had sessions, I was being analysed on the phone. And I would share different dreams with him. And that’s when he said, “Ginger, you are breaking through, not breaking down”.
And, to be able to hold this larger process in my mind, to this day helps, a lot.
Ginger: And I quote him a lot.
And then he recommended you meet somebody face to face, you started to have sessions with Gerhard Adler.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: Who was a colleague of his in London. And the thing I wrote down, again, from your book, which I really loved, was: the first session, you don’t remember, actually, what you talked about, but you remember the stillness of his listening.
Ginger: Yeah. It was really special. I was really nervous when he said, “I think you need to speak to my good friend Gerhard Adler. You need someone to sit with…
Ginger: … and go through this. So that you don’t break down, that you break through”.
Ginger: He realised that there’s a bigger process that you’re going through right now to do with your soul being born.
So I finally got the courage to call him and he answered the phone and he said, “Gerhard here” – they always did that!: “Engle here.” “Gerhard here.” [both laugh]
And I said, “Dr Engel said I should come see you”. “He always does that. He did, did he? OK. Can you come tomorrow at 7:30 in the morning?” I thought ‘Oh my God!’ So I went. The stillness in the room was very, very special…
Ginger: … and his eyes.
Iain: And that, you know, this comes up a lot on Conscious TV: the importance of listening.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: That has changed so many people’s lives: they’ve been with someone who’s just able to listen to them.
Ginger: Also, what I want to share with you is that Sting wrote an article, which I have, I can send to you, called ‘The Silence of Music’.
Ginger: He says that, for him, he listens to the space between the notes.
Ginger: And that is the same for us, there is a space between our breaths and the listening, the silence, and the word. And that’s what Gerhard Adler helped me to understand and feel.
And then, one day, you went for a session…
Iain: … you knocked on the door…
Ginger: Yes, and Mrs Adler answered, who I’d never met before, and said, “Ginger, Gerhard passed over in the night -” you would have never known that he was ready to pass over in our sessions!
Ginger: Same with Dr Engel. He was in pain in his legs and you’d never know it.
And she said that, “Gerhard and I had discussed who of his clients I might be best for me to take on. I’m happy to take you on in the new year, after we finish everything with his passing over, if you so choose.” And I just stood there, and it was raining, and I said, “OK, we’ll do that,” and I started with her.
Iain: Yeah. How was she different from him, in terms of her work?
Ginger: I could lay down on the couch! [both laugh] She brought me into – how can I say this? She helped me with dealing with David and I separating a lot.
Ginger: She had me see someone called Dr Rossi, who dealt with The Erikson Institute, and he did a type of hypnotherapy, relatively new then. And she said, “Ginger, I can’t – there aren’t any personal one-to-one appointments left but he’s doing this special demonstration before all the unions in London; would you like to be his guinea pig?” And I said, “OK, I’d like to give it a go.”
That was really an amazing experience.
Ginger: First off, my psyche didn’t want to go there. I got lost going to Mrs Adler’s house and then on to the special place where they were holding it. And I had to pull the car over and say, “Listen, this is going to be a really good thing for us, we need to go and have this experience. Can you please let me figure out where we are and get us there so we’re not late!” And, suddenly, the psyche changes and, suddenly, I could figure out the A-Z, I could even see it and we go off.
And I get in there and I’m sitting there and he starts to talk to me, and talk about going into a fog, and allowing an image to come. And each time, once I would express a certain image, he would then, after a while, say, “Are you OK?” And, if I wasn’t, I’d say, “No” or “Yes”. And, if it was a “No”, he would take me back into being present.
What eventually came – because I was really, my heart was palpitating at one point – and the vision that arose was that I was this little being crawling on a busy street in the city – large wheels, just seeing lots of feet up to the knees. And I was crying and some man picked me up and took me somewhere, up these stairs into an empty room – as I recalled in this experience – and started to kiss me on the face – I was screaming! – and he drops me and, as he’s running out the door, he kicks me in the stomach, by accident, and leaves. And, suddenly, a woman comes up, hearing this baby crying, picks me up and takes me to the police station as a lost child.
And, within my father’s side of the family, they always joked about the time, somehow, I got to the other side of Philadelphia in the police station! When I was little. My mother never heard that story, they were already separated and all.
But it was fascinating to realise that because, up to that point, whenever David and I… if I sensed that, with anybody, if anyone was upset with me, I would get a kick in the stomach. And, after seeing that, it transformed, it stopped happening.
Iain: Mm. Interesting.
Iain: I’m looking at the clock and we only have so much time left and I want to just cover a couple of things quickly, if that’s OK.
Another dream which you had, which I thought was quite significant, and I’m sure you did as well, was the dream about Mrs Tweedie, about the end of your…
Iain: … relationship with her. Just briefly…
Ginger: Briefly, we were in Hawaii, I had this dream. She said there are four types of dreams. One of them is the teacher comes and teaches to you. And she came to me and she talked and talked and talked and talked and talked, and then said, “You don’t have to come back to see me, I’ve told you everything you need to know and work on.” So I didn’t go back to see her for 6 months, because I wasn’t quite sure whether that was true or not, and it was, she just acted as though I didn’t exist. So, I’ve gone out into the world, on my own.
Iain: Extraordinary, isn’t it. You go back, you were very close to her in one way and she acts as though you don’t exist. But I guess that, as you say, was her way of teaching and communicating and she was communicating in different ways.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: And then I also wanted just to, very briefly, talk about something you watched on television, the 2nd July 2005. It was The Floyd reunion after so many years and, unfortunately, we didn’t have time today to talk about how ‘The Wall’ affected so many things in terms of your relationship and the band… But The Floyd reunion, there was something very touching for that, for you, wasn’t there?
Ginger: Mm hm. David held – he was really hurt by Roger –
Iain: Roger Waters, yes.
Ginger: Roger Waters. And he – Bob Geldof had called him and said, “David, would you do the concert?” “I’m not fucking doing this concert” – pardon me, Bob used that word a lot. And he said, “Can I come see you and talk to you about it?” so he goes to talk to him, and he says, “I’m not going to do that, I’ll never get together with that guy.” Bob gets in the car, says, “Come on,” and he says, “No!” and he says, “think about it.”
And, eventually, Roger, who had already said “Yes”, said, “Well, Bob, how did you get on?” and he said, “It’s a ‘no’.” So Roger says, “Give me his current phone number, I’m calling him.”
Ginger: And so Dave said, “Yes.”
And I sat in the kitchen, while my kids were down in the front of the stage and everything, texting me, telling me who was there and what was happening. And I’m watching the whole concert through the day and finally The Floyd come on and David’s just like [pulls face and poses with air guitar] really stubborn. And Roger’s being softer than ever. And I just said, “Come on, Dave, let go! Be what you were when you were young, when you were first with The Floyd.” And by the time they got to ‘Comfortably Numb’, which, to me, is the most moving song that he ever played, he let go. And it was just magic.
Because that song, for all the difficulty of ‘The Wall’, and the intensity of the anger, and everything in that music, that David and Rick helped to transform, ‘Comfortably Numb’ was the song that took us to the stars.
Iain: I’m going to finish – I’m going to read a quote from the end of your book, just to finish the interview: “I see it clearly now, it was a journey of return to God, and to serve, each day. And I’ll speak to him, my closest friend.”
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: It’s lovely.
Ginger: Thank you.
Iain: Ginger, I really enjoyed you being here.
Ginger: Thank you.
Iain: We could have covered so much more but that’s the way it is.
Ginger: Mm hm.
Iain: I’m going to show your book again…
… ‘Memoirs of the Bright Side of the Moon’.
And there are so many wonderful images in the book, as I say we’ll try and show some of them at the end of the programme, if you’re watching on the Internet.
And also now what we’re going to do is, we’re going to invite Mick Collins in, who was a guest earlier today, and also did a lot of Jungian work, also had some difficulties in his life, and we’re going to have a discussion between Ginger, Mick, Renate my wife, and myself. So, if you’re watching on the Internet you should be able to find this very easily.
So, thank you again, Ginger.
Ginger: Thank you.
Iain: Thank you, everybody, for watching Conscious TV.
Ginger: Thank you.
Iain: And, hopefully, we’ll see you again very soon.
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