David Bingham - 'Self-Realization and Consciousness Experience'  

Interview by Renate McNay (lightly edited)

Renate: Hello and welcome to Conscious TV. My name is Renate McNay and my guest today is David Bingham. Hello David.

David: Hello

Renate: Now David was here already a few times and we are really happy to have him back and we are going to talk about something fascinating which is self-realisation and the evolution of consciousness.

Okay David, so my first question is: What is the evolution of consciousness and how is it related to self-realisation?

David: Self-realisation is simply knowing one's true nature as the infinite timeless being. And the evolution of consciousness is in relation to the play or the story that's appearing within that. So the main thing to be known is that the evolution of the relative aspect of consciousness doesn't take you to self-realisation but it's something that we can become more conscious of in terms of experience. Because what we are truly is, we're simply infinite consciousness having an experience and because infinite consciousness can do anything, it can take on limitations which can give rise to experience that can become undesirable.

Renate: So are we talking about the evolutionary part is… we become a better human being or we are freeing of ourselves of our ego boundaries and structures?

David: Well, you could say an important aspect of the evolution of consciousness is to realise that we're the infinite being rather than the human being. The human being is a character that we've built; it's a construct that we've taken on. It’s a concept of limitation where we've built ideas that have given rise to this particular experience which is the limitation of the human form, the human environment, a body-mind existing within time and space, the problematic sense of self, a calamitous world to live in. All of those components - they're actually things we subscribe to on some level prior to this experience which is why it's arising as it is.

Renate: So we are infinite awareness. Are we bothered by evolution? (both have a little chuckle)

David: That's a great question, that's a great question. The infinite being that we are isn't bothered about anything. It isn't bothered by the dramas, it isn't bothered by the problems in the world, human problems, limitations. In fact it delights in them because its nature is infinite so it just loves to experiment and enjoy games within limitation. And because it's infinite it permits and allows everything with infinite love.

Renate: Right. So in your own, after you awakened were you interested in the evolutionary part? Or what changed? And in my question, the question is coming from a place in me where I've certainly felt the more I was realizing who I am, the more started something to shift in my daily life in the way I experienced the world.

David: Yes. Well one of the key things is to realise that the evolution of consciousness isn't real. That it's something we can play with. So it isn't taking us anywhere but we can bring more consciousness into our experience which makes it seem as though it can be progressive. Because you can move from less favourable experience to more favourable experience which makes it appear as though there's a process of evolution taking place when really consciousness is being applied to our infinite potential which is giving rise to a particular experience.

Renate: But then when we… a lot is talked about how everything is love. And everything is awareness, everything is consciousness.

David: Yes.

Renate: But yet this love which is our true nature is so little manifest.

David: Yes.

Renate: Wouldn’t you say this is our process towards living love?

David: Well, I see it slightly differently to that because we're here for this experience for many reasons. If you look at the whole range of human life in human experience you could say that there are beings here and their main reason for being here is to control. And to actually utilize human beings as a resource. So they wish to play the game of separation and superiority. So what they want to experience is power, they want to put themselves above others and to manipulate others.

Now if you have a subscription to the idea of inferiority or the idea of victimization or you just have the idea that you're not as good as others then you find yourself in circumstances where you're subscribing to this hierarchy. Now the hierarchy that exists for instance within the physical realm is illusory because there is no hierarchy because there is only the infinite being. But it depends on how we play the game as to where we subscribe. And what's important to know is this what's appearing for us is based entirely on the subscriptions - conscious and subconscious subscriptions. So if you feel that you're someone who can dominate others, manipulate everybody to your own selfish ends then you'll probably find that that comes into being.

Renate: Sorry David but when you say we subscribe…

David: Yes.

Renate: I get the feeling we are in control of that.

David: We as the infinite being are infinite potential. And from there we start and are always actually the infinite being, we never move out of being the infinite being, we are always that. It's just that we add these filters of experience so we move from infinity through into more and more limitation. And by the time we enter human experience the limitation within this vibration is extremely limited. But it's because we've subscribed consciously and subconsciously to certain concepts and those concepts give rise to our experience. And so to put it simply the concepts or beliefs we hold are projected and they give rise to the experience that we're having. So the benefit of knowing that is that by changing the beliefs that we're holding we can amend the experience that we're having.

Renate: So what does want to change the experience? What is it that wants to change?

David: Well, first of all it's realizing that what you are is infinite potential. And that infinite potential has played the game of limitation.

Renate: But let’s say I’m subscribed to inferiority….

David:  Complex

Renate: Complex, yes, thank you. And I want to change that.

David: Yes

Renate: So what is it in me that wants to change that? And why do I want to change that if everything is perfect the way it is?

David: Right. Well in an ultimate sense everything is perfect because everything is the infinite being perfectly manifesting the intentions that are appearing within the infinite being in a phenomenal sense. So when you know that you realise that you can move back into your true nature and from there, there can be more consciousness in the nature of experience. So we can move more into consciousness and then we can begin to experience things in a different way.

Now that also is paradoxical because it can be that there are things that we can change. It may be that there are limitations that we subscribe to. For instance, we've subscribed to the limitation of the human body. So for the human experience within that you could say there is the limitation of the duration of the body. And there are limitations of the aging process. Currently there are emotions that are experienced, senses, the limitations of the senses, the limitation of the mind and the capacity of the heart. But those things can be expanded and they can be changed. But the script has to be rewritten.

But there is also something important to know within that which is that we've subscribed to certain beliefs and they may have to play out. So it is possible to move into a space which is a space of surrender which really is the most effective way of moving beyond suffering. And the way we do that is allowing the default mode of consciousness which is really the nature of infinite consciousness, is that it has no attributes. But in the manifestation process just above the absolute, just above the attributeless,  the attributes of infinite love and infinite intelligence appear. So it's possible to allow those qualities to begin to come through - through surrender. And the way we surrender is by allowing the intuition and inspiration that we feel to be the motivating factors for activity.

So rather than being dependent on the mind and listening to the programming that we have installed and being influenced by the matrix of experience as it’s presented through contact with other human beings, through the media and through the consensus reality, we can begin to just move back into our essential nature. And what you find then is that the inspiration that you feel is the guiding force for activity. So rather than feeling that you have to do something out of a sense of responsibility or a certain sense of guilt or any other limiting concept, you can simply be responding to inspiration.

Renate: Right. Actually just an experience about that comes to my mind. My mother used to play this game with me where when I lived abroad she would call me and then whoever was present in her room she said “Wait a bit, I put you on to that person or to that.” And she never asked me if I wanted to talk to any of those people and I would get so furious and angry with her. And I always ended up then doing what she wanted. And there was this particular moment where I spoke to her and she said “So-and-so is here to visit and I put you on.” And something in me completely let go of every resistance.

David: Yes.

Renate: And in this moment the whole picture changed.

David: Yes.

Renate: She said “No, I don't do that now and have a beautiful evening.” And hung up.

David:  That's a great example of how you can change your experience through changing perception.

Renate: Yes. But I cannot say that I surrendered. The feeling was surrendering happened.

David: Yes. Exactly. Because by its very nature surrendering doesn't involve doing. it involves not doing.

Renate: Yes. Yes.

David: But it's similar to my step daughter who's eleven. When she was a little bit younger maybe nine years old, she had problems in her relationships at school. And what I realised is that she was holding a concept that she wasn't lovable. She thought that people didn't love her. Now you could say that, you know, that goes back to, prior to, this existence, prior to this particular experience.

But the way it was playing out is that that the friends at school or the girls she'd like to be friends with just didn't want to be friends with her. And so she would then do things to try to draw their attention but that actually alienated them further and they didn't really want to have anything to do with her. So I said “We really need to address this, we really need to change this programming that you have. And firstly it's important to see that you are lovable, that if you accept yourself as you are then everybody will accept you as you are.”

Renate: Did she understood that?

David: And she understood that, she understood..

Renate: Really? “And you’re lovable.” Didn’t she ask ”Why am I lovable?

(a little laughter)

David: Well, fortunately she is an intelligent girl and she could see that she could see the sequence of events, she could see that she was playing up as a means of drawing attention. But then as a result of that she was able to see that actually she was fine as she was and by telling her, you know, that “She's fine,” she could see that. And then she went to a new school and we said “It's absolutely crucial that you don't play out these old programs when you go to the new school because otherwise within a few months everybody's going to hate you.”

And so it was great the way she took it on because she just changed the way she felt about herself. She stopped doing things to try to be the centre of attention and she stopped reacting. You know, I was saying it's really important not to react. If somebody doesn't seem to be demonstrating love to you, you don't need to react to that. You just accept yourself as you are and don't take it personally. And as a result of that she's got some great friendships now and it's given her the confidence to realise that there's absolutely nothing wrong with her and her skills and abilities have just progressed into a completely different realm.

And I think it's a great example when a child of eleven can do that.

Renate: Yes.

David: Because it makes adults realise how easy it is.

Renate: Yeah. And yet you know sometimes - I know that from myself - it's easier said “Don't react.” Reaction is happening so fast.

David: It comes up before you even realise, yes.

RENATE: Before you even engage in any, in any thinking.

DAVID:  In any thinking, yes.

Renate:  Which made me think, OK, there is some information so deep ingrained in ourselves….

David: Yes.

Renate: that something is reacting.

David: Yes.

Renate: And it comes so deep, deep from such a depth that you have no control.

David: Yeah.

Renate: And what do we do then? (with a little laugh)

David: Well, you can surrender to that.

Renate: Surrender to your reaction.

David: You can surrender to the reaction but also you can review the reaction and quite often you can see the reason for that. Because it's really good just to wind the script back sometimes because if you're reacting to something, it's usually most of the emotional reactions - the negative ones things like, you know, anger, jealousy, fear, hatred  - those sort of things ….they're all actually built on concepts of limitation. So, first of all there's the idea that you are this human being, you're limited in time and space, we subscribe completely to the subject-object mode where you feel you are this separate human being and then there's this other human being over here who's doing something that we need to react to. But it's because we've subscribed to that whole belief system. The subject-object mode is something that's constantly reinforced. If you take for instance, the way the media works and the way films are written, the way books are written, the way dramas are written, it's all to do with reinforcing the subject-object mode of experience. But that's completely illusory. And what's important is to realise that the matrix of experience - if you subscribe to it - will constantly reinforce that.

So if you believe yourself to be a separate individual, you turn on your TV or you go to the film, you know, read a book, whatever it is, it's all going to be referring back to the idea that you are this separate individual. And it's tying you into limitation, it's tying you into beliefs, that make life unpleasant because jealousy can only arise if you feel that there's you here who hasn't got something, and someone over there and they have it. You know, hatred is based on the idea that somebody is doing something that is really wrong and that you absolutely detest them for it. But it's all built on separation. But when you dismantle the program and you see firstly that what you are is in the infinite being but you've installed these concepts of limitations. So you've installed the concept of time within which these things can happen. You’ve installed the subject-object mode of experience where there's you here and someone else over there. You've subscribed to the concept that there's something that that person can have that you can't have. You've subscribed to the concept that whatever they have over there and you don't have here will make you happy if you have it. But they're all concepts of limitation that are based on complete fiction.

Renate: So what I get the feeling now David is that the real work starts after realisation.

David: Well certainly. Becoming conscious of experience is something that can happen prior to or after realisation, not that there is actually any point that's different. It's just that it's seen that one’s true nature is just here. Everyone is only infinite consciousness having an experience. That's all it is. It's so utterly simple. And all of the ideas that we've got to do these spiritual practices to realise our true nature, that's all actually part of the matrix where we're subscribing to these concepts of progression, that you have to do things to get somewhere. But our true nature is just here.

But in terms of in terms of being conscious about experience we can actually become more conscious in any moment. But once true nature is seen, once you realise that you are simply infinite consciousness having an experience then the ability to amend the programming becomes more powerful. Because you're seeing the changing realm from the unchanging realm. When you see that you are unchanging infinite consciousness just right here and now and that all the changes and all the concepts are all happening as a projection then you realise that you can begin to amend that projection.

Renate: So David, after you self-realised was there never a moment where you forgot and were you put back into the drama (or were you) always present?

David: For everyone, I would say, there is the opportunity to move back into the subject-object mode and you can be drawn back in or you can choose to move back in. But that isn't a threat to self-realisation or one's true nature. It's just that one’s true nature is the awareness that is aware. So whether it's aware of the subject-object mode or whether it's aware of a universal mode of experience, they're both known by the infinite consciousness that you are. So once the self has been realised it’s seen that experiencing through the subject-object mode isn't seen as an impediment to self-realisation. Because it isn't. It's just that that's what's arising.

Renate: So are you talking about from the stand of the absolute.

David:  Yes.

Renate: Right. But for people - or let's say in my own experience - it happens often that I look, I'm not standing in awareness: I'm looking at it.

David: You're looking at awareness?

Renate: Yes so that means the picture did not is not always reversed.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

David: Yeah

Renate: So therefore it's much easier to get lost in the drama.

David: Yes  

Renate: But of course once you realised it you remember it faster.

David: Yeah. That's a really good way of putting it.

Renate: Right.

David: Because for some people there is a kind of abiding peace or abiding within one's true nature so that even in experience that isn't ever lost. But for most people that isn’t the case initially anyway. And it's really important to know that because many people who were seeking self-realisation feel that there has to be an amendment to experience for there to be self-realisation. They think it's not self-realisation unless there is infinite peace, infinite bliss, total stability. But that's part of the matrix of experience. That's part of the story and that's part of the thing that keeps people seeking. Because when you know that you are already infinite consciousness people are seeking what is already the case. But it's really important to realise that when you know that you're simply infinite consciousness having an experience then from that level of knowing can come the opportunity to be able to amend the programming much more effectively.

Renate: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. So one of the points you told me earlier is and I would like to expand on that is “We project our thoughts and beliefs and they return to us as our experience.” I think we touched on that but is there anything more we can because it's such an important point?

David: Yes. Well it takes it takes a little bit for people to take that on board sometimes because the programming can be so complex that, you know, if you take investments in terms of victimization for instance or a sequence of things. So you know you may have had a problematic childhood, there may have been abuse, there may have been poverty, there might have been a sense of inferiority. There might have been all sorts of limitations that have been built that give rise to a particular perception of the world which is that the world is this hostile place. You know, you're this poor little person and everything is bearing down on you. Now actually the matrix of experience is like that if you look, that's what the news is doing. That's what dramas are doing. That's what books are doing, that's what politicians are doing; they're all reinforcing this idea of limitation. And people are absolutely bombarded with that.

And even more so now and it's intensifying cos what I feel is, you know, the time we're living through at the moment - the time is only within the matrix - but the time we're living through, there is a polarization taking place. The negative polarity is becoming empowered and the positive polarity is becoming empowered so the drama that's appearing is even more intense than it's ever been. Which is why it is really important at this stage to disconnect emotionally and mentally from the subscription to this experience as a reality.

Because when you see it as a virtual reality, you realise actually, you know, this gravity is added to it to make it seem as though it's this really important thing. But actually it's only because we've subscribed to the gravity where we think “Oh isn't is this all terrible.” that it seems to be that way. But because it is only unity the subscription of all these apparent individuals -  this is only within the matrix - but we're all subscribing to and empowering that - we're empowering the illusion. We're empowering the idea that there is this horrible thing here in front of us.

Now there is within our experience a great deal of unpleasantness at the moment in the world. And you know there's a massive amount of deceit in the way the way human beings are educated and the way human beings are informed. But it's really important to realise that the whole thing is a virtual reality. But the one thing that is empowering that, we plug into that in terms of our human sense by subscribing to the negative emotions. By subscribing to fear, by subscribing to anger, subscribing to jealousy and all of these we're actually plugging our infinite energy supply into this matrix and blowing up this huge entity that is really unpleasant. And by removing consciously the link that we have to that we can actually change the nature of the experience.

Renate: So David when you watch the news - I don't know if you do such things (some laughter) - and you see what's going on in Libya and in other places, what is happening inside you in this moment? Do you just say “Okay, I look at the virtual reality,” or is actually something triggered in you, compassion or ….?

David: Well our true nature is that we are the infinite being which hasn't moved into manifestation. We are the knower of everything that is known. We are the infinite consciousness having an experience. But within experience it can be experienced in many different ways. So there are three main modes of experience available to human beings. The one is the chaotic mode. The second one is the mode of opposition, of polarities, of duality. And the third mode is the mode of unity. Now for every human being there's the opportunity for every experience to be experienced through any of those.

So if you take the news, for instance, in the chaotic mode you would look at the news and you would say “All this is going on, there's nothing I can do about it. These people are suffering, all I can do is go and get a bag of chips, go down the pub, you know, come back and smoke a joint and go to sleep and forget about it.”

Renate: And send some money.

David: Yeah well.

Renate: And then you don’t sit there and feel guilty that you have chips (said with a little laughter)

David: The mode of duality is that we're right and somebody else is wrong so you can you get into the whole mode of victimization. You could see, you know, if you look at the way the governments are functioning for instance, to me there is a military industrial complex which is actually the most gross form of this matrix which is appearing or portraying itself to be these various elements like the British government or the American government or the French government but actually it's the same people behind the whole thing. But they just put these different masks up saying “Oh, the United Nations are doing this.” or “The British are doing this” But it's the same few people behind the scenes doing all of it. But that's just for public consumption. So you can see it in terms of duality.

Now the main thing is not to enter into that where you're subscribing to the one polarity. Because if you're saying, you know, all of those greedy chief executives of those companies are utilizing all the resources in Libya, you know, they want to be in Libya because they want to take over the central bank, they want to take over the oil supply and they're doing that throughout the Middle Eastern region you could get into the whole victimization mode. And you can begin to empower that opposite polarity. You can say “Yeah I'm here, you know, I'm right and they're all wrong.”

Renate: So whatever you believe …

David: Is a projection.

Renate: As you said before you start projecting onto whatever is happening.

David: It's really like having a glove puppet. You can have somebody, you know, who you're projecting is really evil and you've got your hand here up the back of the puppet but you've thrown a little rug over your arm so you're not, you know, you've forgotten that it's you.

Renate: Yes.

David: But it really it's just you're talking to yourself. And that's the mode of duality. So it's really important not to, you know ……unless you want to really subscribe to that the way to become liberated from it is not to be subscribing to the polarities. That doesn't mean that you don't do things in an empowering way - it's really important to feel empowered. It's important not to…. it's important to act on the basis of inspiration. So it may be that you want to go and protest. It may be that you want to take all of your money out of the bank and buy gold with it or silver, you know, so that you're not subscribing to that matrix.

Renate: That’s a good idea (with a little chuckle)

David: But ultimately by moving into the unity mode of experience we're able to allow the infinite consciousness, the infinite love, the infinite intelligence to begin to come through to orchestrate everything where all the massive problems as they appear in the world you realise can be taken care of. And that's from our infinite nature which you could say is a new level of consciousness or that’s the level of consciousness that is coming in as an opportunity.

What I'm seeing as someone who speaks to people for whom self-realisation is arising is that many more people now are at the point where they're seeing their true nature - they're realizing their true nature. But it's within the most extreme form of experience. You know there's the catastrophe over in Japan and the nuclear fallout that through the mainstream news they're not even reporting on that. But actually there are massive things happening in the world that if you subscribe to the mainstream version of reality you really have no idea of what's going on.

Renate: Yeah.

David: But the main thing is to realise it's a virtual reality. It isn't what you are. It's a projection - we've subscribed to this. We're on the ride, we've got our ticket and we're having this ride. But we can surrender to our infinite nature and allow the infinite intelligence, the infinite love to come through which then overrides the programming. And it means we're pulling out the power supply to this illusion that is there in front of us.

Renate: The other day I was walking down the street in London and in a house dark niche was sitting a woman on the floor and she just was crying so, so much that you know my heart started to hurt. And I was standing in front of her - and I'm normally a helper type and I normally reach out to people and try to comfort them - and I stopped. I didn't do that. I just looked at her. And as you just said, that was happening.

David: Yes

Renate: I saw a façade and behind that I saw true nature dancing.

David: Yes Absolutely.

Renate: And I didn't have to do anything in this moment. Not to reach out. That's how it started to manifest here (gesturing from her chest) and I walked away and my heart felt light.

David: Yes. Which what you could say is that that is a reflection of your own consciousness. You had an opportunity to look at your past conditioning which is the idea that you have to be helping somebody because they're in a state of turmoil. But the experience changed as a result of the changing in the way you experience.

Renate: Yes.

David: So that's a great indicator that that programming is subsiding

Renate: Yeah. There was also another experience I had and that was many years ago how I saw in this moment how I am actually by identifying with something I create, I create the opposite. For many years I worked as a healer, a hands-on healer and I was traveling around in the world and giving healing events and was absolutely convinced the reason why I was here on this planet was to heal humankind. (little laugh) And you know, I was so overwhelmed with all the sick people who came to me and their victims and, you know, I needed to help them and sort them out. And I just loved it because I was needed.  (both laugh) I was subscribed to that.

And one day, actually through a big car crash where I was on ice, I thought “Where am I on ice in my life?” And I saw how identified I was being a healer. And that's how I created all these sick people coming to me.

David: Yes.

Renate: And in the moment I stopped that, I was confronted with sick people but they said “I have cancer.” or whatever and “I take responsibility for that and where can I go from here?”

David: Yes.

Renate: I didn't get any victims anymore – that was fascinating.

David: That’s a fantastic example.

Renate: Yeah how reality changes …

David: ..changes when you change your beliefs.

Renate: Yeah

David: And sometimes it becomes untenable doesn't it? I had a similar experience within my family actually. You know, my family conditioning was that we all help each other which is what I did. And then it got to the point where I became so overburdened that I lost all my own power and I realised that the basis of that programming was actually the need for approval. What I was more interested in at that time was getting people to like me. I wanted people to like me so they'd say “Oh isn't he a good chap.” But you find with all of those programming's, as you did, that it gets to the point where you're so overwhelmed by it that you have to just forget this. (Laughter)

Renate: Well you burn yourself out over it, you make yourself sick (both laugh)

David: But when you see it’s just such a childish game really, we just play these games and you know we do invest so much in them and at the time they just seemed so crucially important.

Renate: I know and it all seems so real.

David: But really we should be more like children because with children they go out you know, and it's with such great enthusiasm they're playing these games and it's all so real to them and then it gets to a point where they fall over or something and they say “No, no.” They just walk away. They've invited their mate round for the afternoon and they just get fed up of it and they just walk off. But then they forget about it and the other one he doesn't bother either.

But that's how we should be as humans, you know, all of these sort of mollycoddling and everything you know it's just …

Renate: But how do we find this innocence back? In order for that you need to realise who you are.

David: Well the great thing is that innocence has never left us because our true nature is innocence. And you know we're innately innocent which is why we can play these games. So it isn't a case of trying to regain innocence; it's just realizing that we never lost it, that we've just played the game of pretending that we didn't have it for a while.

Renate: When you said “We subscribe.” and “We are pretending,” It's like it's a conscious act.

David: It is. Because we're infinite consciousness we can have any experience. And you know we're functioning within very narrow boundaries at the moment. It's, you know, this is just one vibration, this is just one experience, one possibility. And even, you know, even the idea of subscribing to physical existence is such a limitation because even within human experience we're actually moving between the physical body, a mental body, an emotional body. There's also a body of wisdom and a body of bliss that most human beings in the current state hardly ever consciously move into. They might accidentally find themselves in there for some reason but it is possible to be able to move through all of those. I mean that's why everyone's seeking bliss, everyone's seeking wisdom. Those things can become available but they don't become available to the individual. They become available when you realise your true nature and you realise all of the limitations that have been imposed.

We've subscribed to them. We need to say “Yeah you know I was interested. Actually I did enjoy hating that person, you know, I do like violence sometimes.” You know, that's why we're here. We're looking at history. The beliefs that we have and all the things that we're seeing, all the injustice, the murder, the victimization, all the horror we're seeing in the world is still visible to us because on a subconscious level we've all invested in that at some stage.

Renate: Yeah

David: So there's no point in saying “Oh look at that wicked person over there, what they're doing,” because the only reason they're appearing to us is because we've invested in that to some degree.

Renate: Yes. So we have everything in us.

David: Everything’s available.

Renate: But this doesn't give us the right to play it out.

David: To play it out?

Renate: To play it out. Let’s say when you said “Okay, I love being violent at times.” How does that fit with being self-realised?

David: Well, no, I wasn’t speaking personally.

Renate: No but there are people out there who say they are self-realised and then they are violent or they have other subscriptions.

David: Yes.

Renate: Say in the name of the truth, in the name of God.

David: Yeah. Well what I feel is that as more consciousness comes in, more love comes in and with self-realisation comes a realisation that everything is you.

Renate: Yeah

David: So it is impossible with self-realisation to harm. Again it is slightly paradoxical because it may be that a situation arises where, you know, you have to be angry with somebody or you have to be, you know, you have to grab them and hold them against the wall or something. But that's the appropriate activity in that moment. But it isn't that you're subscribing to that. Some of the people….. I received an email this morning actually from this guy and he was he was saying about his relationship with his wife how he played in this role. You know there was this thing going on where she was getting slightly upset and he was able to see the whole thing and then he played it in a particular way but he wasn't subscribing to the anger. He wasn't subscribing to anything in particular. But that doesn't mean that you don't partake in that activity. It just means that you're consciously aware of what that is.

Renate: Right

David: But really because it's a field of all possibilities those things are possible. That's how we found ourselves in such a place as this. Yes, it's an absolutely wild ride and you know we're here for the contrast of experience. You could say we're here within this matrix of experience where it seems as though negativity has completely taken over the whole of human experience and controlling absolutely everything. And within that I'm going to play the game of waking up to my true nature. And that's what we're doing; that's the game we’re playing.

Renate: In the very beginning when my spiritual search started I had this vision - I don't know if it was a vision or a fantasy or whatever - that we are nothing but a computer game for another being in a different universe. And just to press this button and you do that and press this button and they do that and so forth. Who knows?

David: Well I think that’s pretty close to the way human experience is currently. I think what humans are experiencing is a kind of hacked reality. It's something where we've subscribed to the idea that there can be extreme limitation, that we can be controlled. That other people or other beings can be superior and that they can create these hierarchies and we subscribe to them and that we’re just down here as sheep. But it's because we subscribe to that that it's a possibility. But the reality is that that's a hack version. The real version is infinite love but maybe we've had so much experience in our infinite nature of infinite love - we thought “Well, we'll go on the ghost train for a while, we'll have a go on that”

Renate: Well, the outcome is not clear yet (both laugh)

David: No.

Renate: Are we going down the hill? Or are we going …. I don't know.

David: It's like a multi-dimensional theme park but I think what happened is the way humans are experiencing at the moment it's as though there's just like this little kiddies ride this mini roundabout and everybody's got on it. And you know this rascal has come along and he keeps sending it around faster and faster and putting the prices up and everyone's getting thrown off.

Renate: Yeah (with a chuckle)

David: But the nature of experience is that it is multi-dimensional, you know even within the calamity of human life as it is at the moment - I'm sure you experience it, I know you do - and many people also are able to access a level of complete peace and imperturbability.

Renate: Yeah

David: And so you realise that what is going on might be happening on a particular level but there are other levels and there are other ways of experiencing it and we know we can play with all of those.

Renate: Yeah. And to stop subscribing you mean we just surrender? We lean back and enjoy the ride?

David: Well surrender isn't kind of conceding. Surrender is surrendering the mind so that  the infinite being, the infinite consciousness, the infinite intelligence can move through to begin to organize everything in a way that is just much more effective.

Renate: Yes, I think that is good what you just said “Surrendering the mind” Not trying to figure out

David: Mmm

Renate: Just living really in the unknown.

David: Yeah. Yes and also in terms of the…. well just really to clarify what I mean about surrender. The most effective way to surrender is by utilizing intuition and inspiration because intuition is coming through directly from infinite consciousness from a place other than the mind. So that is a much more reliable form of guidance. And inspiration should be the form that we use in terms of activity rather than any other means. So we shouldn't be basing our activity on things like a feeling of guilt or a feeling that we have to do it or that life is really unpleasant and so I need to continue to subscribe to this unpleasant experience.

Renate: Good … I’m afraid we have to stop. Time is always moving so fast with being with you David. Well thank you for coming to Conscious TV

David: Thank you.

Renate: And thank you for watching Conscious TV and I'm sure we'll see you again soon.

Bye bye.

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