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Prajna Ginty – The Edge of Grace

Interview by Renate McNay

Renate:  Hello and welcome to, my name is Renate McNay and my guest today is Prajna Ginty.  Hello Prajna.

Prajna:  Hello.

Renate:  Welcome to England.  Prajna came all the way from America to be with us.  Beautiful.  Prajna is a spiritual teacher, author and before all, a mother.  She wrote this book which is quite a compelling read Edge of Grace: a Seeker’s Path to the Heart of Liberation.  Reading this book brought so many things up for me and I really got confronted with my fear of living because life is as we know so unpredictable, but we will find out how unpredictable it was for you.  I also think this book is an account of one of the toughest spiritual paths I heard about, but let’s start in the Nirvana, until you get thrown back into life.  So you were telling me you were on top of the mountain, the enlightenment mountain, everything was wonderful in your life and you had the realisation of who you are.  So tell me about it, how did it happen? 

Prajna:  Sure.  Well, I think I was very fortunate in that I didn’t have any concepts about enlightenment.  I was never really looking for enlightenment, or I didn’t have an idea about it.  But I stumbled upon, in a sort of desperate seeking, Ramana Maharshi’s teaching through a friend, through a potluck dinner.  I was invited to Satsang and I didn’t have any notion whatsoever about truth, non-duality or anything.  I think that was to an advantage, perhaps because when I arrived to the Satsang I was really fresh and open and hungry.  I needed to know who I was, I was really lost and when I heard the teachings that you are the self I really felt something emptied out.  Something that wasn’t me emptied out and created a space that allowed life to open up in me. 

Renate:  So what was it that was emptied out? 

Prajna:  Confusion, doubt, suffering, beliefs- everything that kind of gave me a feeling of being confined as a personality.

Renate:  Yeah, so your path started in that moment? 

Prajna: Yeah and then I became interested in the teachings.  I didn’t know about them, they kind of landed on my lap so to speak and I just ended up returning and returning and naturally I fell into some very deep Samadhis, as they were called.  Deep meditative states of being absorbed and I would just naturally fall into these.  When it was time to leave and go home and go to work, as I had a very active work life at the same time, all of it seemed to flow very naturally without any thought about it.  I would be in meditation, I could go to work and it was very harmonious, very smooth and there wasn’t any thought about it. 

Renate:  So you somehow managed to bring the Samadhi state into your life?

Prajna:  Yeah well I think that it came, but I didn’t bring it.

Renate:  So it was already settled enough in you that it stayed.

Prajna:  Yeah, it came and my work was very productive.  I was working as a healer then doing massage work and I was very busy.  I think that people were attracted to the energy, the field, and it was a very happy time.

Renate:  And the fascinating thing is you were telling me that because of this deep absorption in the Samadhi for seven or eight years you did not age in this time.

Prajna:  Yeah.

Renate:  Everything stopped - a kind of preserve in the changeless.  I never heard about that.

Prajna:  Well because when I left I was still young.  It was kind of like going into a very deep, deep rest and then even though I was busy physically and functioning at a high level it didn’t wear on me and the meditation was so continuous in a sense that I felt like I was being preserved and perhaps I was being preserved for the special task that was coming up ahead of me.

Renate:  That’s right-your purpose in life.

Prajna:  Yeah.

Renate:  Okay, you had several profound experiences of who you are?

Prajna:  Yes, well the main thing that really registered for me, that really landed in kind of this emptying out of this tavern, landed in a deeper place was that I am the self, the spirit.  I really couldn’t identify with myself as a person, or a body, but it didn’t have any opposition to it either.  There wasn’t a conflict and it wasn’t something I ever thought about.  I kind of learnt about these things later on and I think when the mind starts to learn about concepts it can actually have an impact on the experience itself.

Renate:  Yes, it gets boxed in.  

Prajna:  So the learning isn’t necessarily helpful.  I think that at the time it was really a sense of being innocent.

Renate:  And did you also find emotionally you were peaceful at this time?

Prajna:  Yes, but I didn’t have any challenge either at the time.  I didn’t have anything rocking my boat so it wasn’t a lot to have to deal with.  

Renate:  And then your first baby was born.  It was a bliss baby.

Prajna:  Yes she was very much a bliss baby.  During my full pregnancy with her I was working on the Ribhu Gita the entire time which is a dialogue on the nature of reality and the absolute truth.  She heard that every day and I think it influenced the birth.  So she came out very easy, it was a very natural, home birth and no complications whatsoever and she’s a very normal person today.  But she has an incredible amount of depth, very deep person, a lot of wisdom.  She’s in the book.  The whole story is in there.

Renate:  I just want to mention we cannot go into complete detail of your story, but Prajna did a couple of months ago an in-depth interview with Rick at the Buddha at the Gas Pump that you can watch and read her book.  So what happened afterwards Prajna?

Prajna:  After the first child was born?

Renate:  Yes.

Prajna:  Well then, I became pregnant with twins and that was a very different experience.  They were born, I don’t know why it’s still kind of a mystery of whatever happened, three months early and because I was 39 when I had them we had a hospital back up plan so we had to go to the hospital.  Once you’re admitted to the hospital it’s their territory so my midwife wasn’t involved any longer.  So they were induced and they were born three months early and one pound each and that’s very tiny.  It’s like a hand, it’s this size.  They had severe complications at birth, very severe, so they were in the neonatal care intensive care for four months.  It was quite an overnight shift, in a weekend everything changed.  I went from having this ordinary, graceful life, very harmonious, no challenge and then it turned upside down.  First of all I wasn’t really accustomed to Western Medicine.  I had always practiced holistic health so I needed to deal with hospitals, medications, operations.  All these kinds of things - oxygen tanks, feeding tubes, crying, a lot of pain - a lot of uncertainty, major uncertainty every day.  Every day was like a new piece of something that would present itself.  

Renate:  And how was that for you?  You know when you first heard these two little babies and they had disabilities and couldn’t see and all kinds of things were wrong.  How was that for you? 

Prajna:  At first I think I kind of slid back behind myself and was observing everything as if it was somebody else’s life.  It took a long time for it to register that this is my life, that sudden change that now this is the life that I'm going to be living.  It was really difficult for me to step into those shoes, but I think what carried me was survival for a very long time because there wasn't anything else to do but take care of the babies and I think any mother is biologically programmed and wired hormonally to take of their children.  So that's an advantage we have in our biology, or otherwise it would be easy to walk away from it.  I don't know but it was very challenging to stay with it and I was at the neonatal intensive care.  I pretty much lived there for four months.  Then there was also my other daughter to take care of and my partner trying to maintain his work and all of us trying to get our footing in this new arena.  Something that was never thought about, never considered.  It was just all completely new and the thing about it that was most daunting that you can't even consider in the beginning is that this isn't a kind of an emergency situation that was going to be over with in a little bit of time.  That's the part that's like this is your life forever and I mean you know, this isn't going to be done in a few weeks. 

Renate:  And after four months you came home with the children and then this whole nightmare started that one of your babies wouldn't sleep and you had to rock her twenty-four hours a day.  You didn't sleep for four years.

Prajna:  Right. Yeah.

Renate:  There was a point when you said, “I don't want this life.” 

Prajna:  Yes, I think that in retrospect I didn't really understand what was happening at the time of course, but I could see that I really identified with the sensations in my body of tiredness.  At a certain point the physical body just couldn't do it and didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel.  I went into a really dark space and it gives me great appreciation for people who go into depression and go in these really dark spaces that you don't have any control over.  It's kind of like you've already been identified, or hooked into something that's bigger than you and not being able to see outside of it.  So that happened and that was very unusual for me because I always had a lot of light and in my life prior I had other challenges that I had been able to step forth and manage.  But at a certain point with this one I just was like, “If this is what it's going to be like I can't do it.”  I think it was this whole sense of feeling defeated, feeling that I'm done, I can't do this.  I'm really spent.  That brought me to my edge and that's why the name of the book is The Edge of Grace

Renate:  It's interesting no matter how wise we are and connected we are, if something goes wrong with the body it's like everything… the whole consciousness is pulled in.  Knowing you were in Samadhi for such a long time… and then the body took over with its tiredness and there's nothing you can do.

Prajna:  It completely took over.  There wasn't any sense of expansion that I had felt for years.  I felt almost like I was floating and then I felt really dense.  It was really the complete opposite. 

Renate:  Were you sad about it?

Prajna:  Yeah, what happened after that was almost as if there was some knot of resistance in me to the life that was presented.  It wasn't only in me.  It was in the field of our entire environment.  It was difficult for all of us and I was carrying a lot of that.  There was like this knot of resistance and I think the experience of just giving up, really coming to the edge, allowed the surrender to happen. 

Renate:  Talk us through how that was, when you came to the edge. 

Prajna:  As we were saying, it was taken over by the experience that this is dark.  There isn't an end in sight.  It was almost as if it had a mechanism of its own, a mind of its own and it was operating this.  It took me to an edge where I was ready to be done, to let go. 

Renate:  It wasn't just what you experienced, you saw also these little creatures suffering and that must have been incredibly difficult for a mother. 

Prajna:  Yes, you see it all the time when a baby is crying it's uncomfortable for everybody.  You want to comfort that child and I wasn't able to comfort her.  The only way she was comforted was through movement, so I had to keep moving and we took turns moving her, bouncing her on the trampoline, walking or rocking.  I still to this day have an injury on my ankle from high speed rocking.  That's how much I rocked.  I rocked endlessly for years, for two and a half years, I think it was.  She cried and it was really difficult to hear crying. 

Renate:  The other day I went to a shopping centre getting our food and I hear this baby crying and crying and it doesn't stop and then I look around.  It hurts so much and I see this mother there having one hand to push the baby and the other the shopping trolley loading things up and not even looking at this baby.  I go there thinking should I take the baby out or not and then the mother looks at me and I said, “You know this child cannot regulate itself and it needs to hear your heartbeat. You need to take it out and hold it to your heart so it can calm down” and she looked completely surprised.  Then I watched her and a few minutes later she took it out and it stopped crying.  But it's painful to hear a baby cry. 

Prajna:  There’s many parents I know that go through a period with their children, or the colicky child and then you are not able to go out.  It really shifts your lifestyle because you have to be constantly at home because you don't know when the upset is going to happen.  It's unpredictable.  The other thing that she used to do was projectile vomit.  Everything that she would eat wouldn't stay in, so she was tiny still.  I think it maybe wore me out, or it broke my resistance - a surrender happened.  For her it must have happened too after I went to the edge and got sent home by something much stronger than me. 

Renate:  So you wanted to jump off the edge? 

Prajna:  Yeah, I wanted to be finished.  I mean, I didn't want to.  It wasn't like, “I'm going to do this kind of thing.”  It's just what happened and then I got pushed back.  It wasn't allowed to happen, I was pushed back home, pushed back to get some rest.  When I came home Libby stopped crying and I slept for four hours that night continually in the chair holding her and she looked like the most serene baby after that.  She had this angelic look on her face and she was sleeping so peacefully.  For me it was like, “What is this all about?  What's going on here?”  I can feel myself feeling very touched by that grace that she brings.  As difficult as her life is she has only brought light and joy.  We call her the ‘Be Joy’.  It was over, after that she became more integrated in her nervous system and she brings light and joy to everyone that meets her.  Her functioning hasn't really improved that much.  We've done a tremendous amount of therapies and for whatever reason her body isn't into integrating those movements, whereas her sister is a total go getter, but Libby is at peace so she's happy.  She's here for a reason. 

Renate:  So the moment you let go, you surrendered.

Prajna:  Surrendering happened. 

Renate:  Surrendering happened, grace happened. 

Prajna:  A big grace happened.  I cannot accept responsibility for that. 

Renate:  After that did you find peace again inside? 

Prajna:  Yeah, it didn't happen overnight, there was an adjustment phrase.  The blinders started to open, my eyes started to open, the field started to open and expand and I could see more again.  I could see possibility and I could see the support that was around us and the resources that were there that perhaps I had turned away from.  I just went into isolation and when you're in isolation you don't actually see what's available to you. 

Renate:  I guess you were in shock, your whole system, everything was frozen. 

Prajna:  Yes, exactly.  Not too long after that another grace came with my friend knocking at the door, the same one who brought me to my first Satsang.  She came knocking at my door because she knew that I was going through a very challenging time.  Adyashanti had just started teaching and she had a cassette of the Mysteries of Christ which spoke about Awakening and part of the entire unfoldment being that you go through a dark night, maybe even more than once.  So she kept telling me to listen to this and I was not interested in teachers anymore, but when she left I couldn't wait to listen to it and I put it in the player. 

Renate:  I think what you said was that you were not interested in teachers who do not include life. 

Prajna:  Right, who do not include life as it is.  She said that you're going to like this because he talks about dark nights and I said I never heard anybody talk about dark nights, other than the Christian mystics who aren't alive.  So here's a live person. 

Renate:  When you started listening to Adyashanti, how was that for you? 

Prajna:  It was like music to my eyes.  Finally somebody is talking about what I've been going through.  I felt like an outcast, like I really had failed.  I felt… I don't know, it was really difficult. 

Renate:  What did you think you had failed? 

Prajna:  I felt that I had just failed at the life I had been given and also spiritually too, because after hanging around the organisation listening to the teachings, somebody who had spiritual experiences wouldn't come into a dark night.  That was the understanding at the time - that you wouldn't have difficult periods, or challenges.  That wasn't included in the process of unfoldment. 

Renate:  Because nobody talked about that. 

Prajna:  Right, so then Adyashanti freely and openly spoke about all of these things and then it didn't take long for me to feel natural again.  To feel like I can just rest and be who I am, that there isn't really a big problem here.  It started to shift from being a problem that I needed to solve, to a lifestyle that I needed to adjust to. 

Renate:  You said you realised you are darkness, you are the light, you are everything, and everything can be here.

Prajna:  All of it’s included, yes. 

Renate:  It's interesting how we have these ideas of how an awakened person has to look. 

Prajna:  Yes, exactly. 

Renate:  And that completely changed. 

Prajna:  Yes it did.  It gave me such a great appreciation for the entire human condition.  How people suffer, why people suffer.  In a way, informing me more with my work with people and who they are - to be able to really accept this human part and to include all of it so that the whole ability to be able to express somebody's story, to be able to speak and to give voice to your pain, or your suffering, your happiness, your joy.  To really unpack all of these impressions that sometimes can get locked in the system as beliefs and present a dark night, or a disconnect, or something like that where people don't really know where to go with and know how it fits in.  It fits in perfectly. 

Renate:  We are so disconnected from nature - nature meaning also our bodies, ourselves.  We don't know most of the time what's going on in our body, how we are feeling, how we sense.  The whole unconscious is locked in our body.  How are we going to release that? 

Prajna:  Yeah.  When you were speaking in the beginning about the mountain top, one way that I like to think about that, or just as a picture, the understanding that came to me will often come in an image, or pictures and then I have to interpret that for myself, or whoever I want to share it with.  But this idea of the mountain is that first we’re seeking, or hiking up the mountain and there are many paths, or ways that we can go.  Then we get up to the top to what we think it's going to be - we get to the mountain top, experience what we think enlightenment, or freedom is and once we're there it kind of opens up and you can have a 360 degree view.  So you can be there in the place of the Absolute, or some real profound awakening experience, or one that maybe isn't that profound and be up there and be able to then look back down the mountain and see, “What did I jump out of?  What did I turn away from?  What did I feel I couldn't include?  What did I leave behind?”  

From the top of the mountain you can have that wide view, and then the embodiment is walking back down.  That means all the way into the body through anything that's been left out, tucked away like Christ says, “No stone will be left unturned.”  Then it’s coming all the way down so that you’re all the way into your feet, comfortable in your own skin and fear has dissipated.  This whole idea of being on the top and to be needing to hold on to it… there's an energy of that, of holding back, and whether that's fear, resistance whatever it is, it doesn't really matter.  I feel for me, life pulled me down and it does for everybody.  It's like, “Now it's time to come all the way.  Okay you've got this far, but let’s finish it off.”  It's like half of the picture, like half way. 

Renate:  And the most difficult part is in front of you when you are on top of the mountain and coming back. 

Prajna:  Well I think from the perspective of the mind.  I think for myself, just showing up.  For all of us, when we just show up and we can be here in our bodies, so we can rest back and let it be as it is without putting an interpretation, or a story, because if we hold out a distance it always seems bigger than what it is.  It's distorted, but when we let it come up close, then our capacity to meet it is something that we don't even know that we have until we just let that happen.  I'm always surprised with the capacities that show up.  That's how our capacity strengthens and expands, by walking back down the mountain.  So we can be in our shoes, we can be in our feet, we can be grounded here and able to be available to whatever presents itself.  Not having to turn away, shut down. 

Renate:  You saw your twins [born prematurely], it was overwhelming and you didn't want to live, but then when you started to let it closer, and allowed it to integrate...

Prajna:  I was thinking about a whole lifetime with this, instead of what about just now; because whenever we do that we don't see it for what is it.  Also we don't see that it's not up to us.  There are a million influences that go into one situation.  That's what I got to see more of too, how there's so many influences.  It wasn't just up to me how things turned out.  It never is.  Can you separate out the part that is you? 

Renate:  That's right, it's so interconnected.  The ultrasound in the hospital didn't work and the doctors decided that… and all these different parts that play in.  We just have no control.  

Prajna:  Absolutely not.  Yeah.  Isn't that what awakening is all about?  It's like seeing that you don't have control and to really come out of that sense that there's some kind of individual here that made it happen like that and that I'm responsible.  Now I need to feel this way and I need to make it better.  Everything that we do, especially mothers - everybody - there's the conditioning that comes in about what you need to do for your children. 

Renate:  Yes, I think the advantage you had was that you were awake before you had the children.  I don't know if you see it that way.  You had a reference point already in you of who you are.  Don't you think it would be much more difficult if…?  Actually, you said you were looking around and you tried to find parents who had children and who lived an awake life.  It's not so easy.  I know I researched it a lot.  I wanted to interview mothers who were on a spiritual journey and who had to attend to children. 

Prajna:  Yeah.  I think more and more so now, we hear about it.  I think there's probably more than we know about because the moms are at home.  Even to manage and organize things to go out to an event.  I mean, if you're a mom it's so full on, there are so many details to take care of.  There's probably more going on in the household then in the Satsang. 

Renate:  Sure.  Did you find awake parents in the end? 

Prajna:  Yeah.

Renate:  How do you see enlightenment now?  I think you don't think much about enlightenment. 

Prajna:  No, I don't think much about it, I have a view, but I don't really feel fixated on anything.  It seems like it's always being informed.  But I feel that I see things differently.  I see all of the influences that go into everything.  I see and experience directly the oneness of all things and I can appreciate that, and be less apt to involve myself in the way that I used to years ago thinking that what I do is going to demonstrate a significant difference.  However that doesn't mean that I don't get involved, but I think that more and more it’s this receding back and listening to this innate wisdom that all of us have.  Being informed from a different place, not from the head, but being informed from the body of wisdom that we all have available to us.  Trusting that more and more, that This knows how to live and lead life and not relying on whatever conditioning may be presenting itself every now and then.  The patterns have reversed, or undone themselves - the great undoing of all the patterning.  I think if there was something to be called enlightenment, or just being able to live a free life, I think that it would be being able to express yourself in an unpatterned way.  To be able to live unpatterned and to live from this deeper wisdom. 

Renate:  Do you feel free? 

Prajna:  Yeah.  I'm calling this my Freedom tour on a lot of different levels because there's the personal freedom and right now I'm feeling a lot of personal freedom.  You know three weeks away from my family, which I haven't done ever in 18 years... that's kind of a personal type of freedom, to be able to not have to manage that.  Then there's the freedom from suffering.  I can't remember the last time I suffered.  It doesn't mean that feelings don't happen.  I can have very strong feelings move through here. 

Renate:  You can feel pain? 

Prajna:  Yeah physical pain. 

Renate:  But no suffering? 

Prajna:  It really moves through. 

Renate:  I think suffering has to do with identification.  The moment you are identified with something then it can bring up suffering. 

Prajna:  Yeah, the identifying and the wanting something to be different. 

Renate:  Are you at peace where your children are now?  I think it's Libby who is still in the wheelchair, who will always need you? 

Prajna:  Yeah, Libby is still in a wheelchair and still needs to be fed and still wears diapers, so she needs a lot of care, but she seems really happy.  And I'm happy that she's happy.  I've wanted to do more things for her and I do all that I can to keep her comfortable physically and to continue to develop her strength and skills and functioning as much as possible.  I feel at ease, I feel at peace.  I feel like I have and will continue to give it my best shot as a parent, as a human being.  And then also I know that at a certain time and still it happens sometimes, that I'll feel sad that even with a trip like this - this is a big trip - I couldn't even bring Abby on a trip like this because the accessibility issues are difficult.  But just to be able to pack up all three of my girls at the same time and to take them on an outing, that's probably for me been the most challenging part of the whole journey with my daughters.  

They are three very different people who function at different levels and the environments that they live in are very different.  Where you can take one, you can't necessarily take this one, or this one.  And then to try to bring them all together to just have a nice family outing there's so many things to consider.  I definitely feel sadness about that sometimes.  I would definitely love to pack them all up and go out somewhere.  We can do that with movies and things like that, but to go on a trip we usually can't take Libby with us because it's just too much work.  But I'm happy with that and Abby is doing fantastic.  She'll go to college. 

Renate:  Wonderful.  All your hard work and now she can see.  She was blind.  It's amazing.  We cannot go into details how you did it, but it's just...

Prajna:  She a dancer.  She's an aerial silk artist.  She does all kinds of things.  She loves her physical body, being in the body.  She's body orientated. 

Renate:  I got this feeling reading through your book that you are so connected with your body, with your intuition.  You know your feelings, your sensations and they seem to have guided you.  It was so clear and very beautiful to actually experience [that] through the book.

Prajna:  Yeah, I try to be a good listener.  I think real parenting is about being able to listen.  I have this thing I call wisdom dialogue and that's really coming into dialogue with all the different parts of your body, of yourself, with sensations, everything - like what's happening here, and being able to have a conversation with everything so that it can harmonize and be included, or fall away.  You know to be seen as no longer needed and just let all that fall away.  But it's listening.  Listening is an art, wouldn't you say? 

Renate:  It is.  It's not easy for some.  For some people it's easier than others.  To also listen to nature… that's something.

Prajna:  And to listen to your children when you're trying to get out the door and they're not going.  It happens all the time, any parent can attest to that. 

Renate:  I just remembered this sweet story of my yoga teacher.  She has two girls and one was born with down-syndrome and she works so hard to prepare her for life.  She's five years old and goes to a normal school, but has a teacher sitting next to her.  The mother said to her, her name is also Libby, “Libby put your shoes on.”  Ten minutes later, “Libby did you put your shoes on?”  “No mom, but I found a feather."  And she's standing there sensing the feather in her face.  What can you do?  You just need to let go. 

Prajna:  That's a great story.  I have many stories like that.  I know just what you mean. 

Renate:  Let's talk a little bit about your work.  You were telling me that you work with awakening of the emotional body.  What is that?  How do you do that? 

Prajna:  Well I think that the people who come to me for sessions are interested in that because they see that I'm very open to be emotional and I see it as a very significant part of what I call ‘the unpacking’.  So awakening is one thing.  You've heard it before that you can awaken in the mind and in the heart and then Being really grounds in your being. 

Renate:  So your whole body is awake.

Prajna:  Whole body.  Total embodiment.  Everything is integrating, harmonizing.  There isn't something that's still contracted and suppressed and held back in the system.  I just work with softening.  Softening here and letting whatever wants to present itself to present itself.  I do this deep listening often with people where they get to have the opportunity to tell some of the story because so often in spiritual circles the story is discounted, but I really see the story as a portal.  It's an opening.  I mean, it wants to be told anyway why not just tell it.  Just tell it, come on.  So you give some time to tell the story, but what's important is to get into the impact of the story - how it has impacted the system and the emotions.  What's going on here and then what's bubbling up.  Then you just let that happen. 

So it's not really a searching or a digging for it.  It happens quite naturally when a person is ready to just let those feelings be expressed, dissolved.  Then the opening happens, and then the story falls away because the story is a mechanism.  It's there for a reason.  It's a strategy in a sense.  It's a strategy to get us to the next level, to get us into these deeper places.  So if the story is still there, I'm curious about that.  Okay well let’s hear the story.  Let’s be curious. 

Renate:  And stories are so important.  We want to hear stories when we are little children because it gives us reference points.  It gives us pointers, it gives us so many things.  And there are many people we invite for interviews and they just wanted to tell their story.  Just like you said, it's just a story.

Prajna:  Yeah.  When you know who you are, you don't have to keep reminding yourself of that.  You don't have to repeat that to yourself.  And when you know that your story is not your story, you can tell it but it doesn't matter because you’re free then to tell the story.  Because you really realized that you're not your story.  I think it's an interesting phase that we go through, where we are in this particular mountain top kind of experience.  It's half of it and half we're not going to talk about.  And the other half let’s only talk about this, but in the end if it's really authentic and it's really going to set us free, you want to let all of it happen.  Yes every part… 

Renate:  …is allowed.  The totality of Being. 

Prajna:  I really love working with people and their stories.  I love stories.  I love hearing them because I know when a person really gets to tell it, then they can be done.  You can experience the impact.  It's not by asking a-how-question, but really bringing them into the body so they can see where the story lives.  Where is it still living and how can be set it free? 

Renate:  And I guess the first step by telling the story is we start accepting the story because partly we are embarrassed of so many things in our lives.  We just don't want to talk about it.  Only when we talk about it, say yes to it, then real integration can happen. 

Prajna:  Yes.  Right, so taking it all out of the right or wrong, should or shouldn't have happened.  Yeah. 

Renate:  How do you experience the evolution of consciousness?  

Prajna:  The evolution of consciousness… yeah, I think that it’s happening. 

Renate:  I think so too.  I thought you might have more information. 

Prajna:  You know what's interesting, when I used to teach a lot before I took a break, in the end of the teaching period I had less and less to say all the time.  And I still have less to say because I don't pretend that I know something.  I don't really know anything and I can pretend to know something, or I can sit in the moment and just be with what's here now.  Everything else is kind of a guessing, or it's something that we're hopeful for.  We're hopeful that there's an evolution going on. 

Renate:  My last interview here before you came, this women said something so beautiful which gives this image.  She said life is like a feather on the breath of God.  You just don't know where it goes.  And everything that we make up, all these concepts we create it's trying to find a bit more security on the breath of God.

Prajna:  Yeah I think that's it.  The biology wants to have security and we're conditioned to look for that, but the real security is in knowing who you are.  Maybe this is the evolution that we rest as This, and let it fully live every part.  Let’s come all the way in - not that it's out - but you know fill itself out and wash out what isn't true.  The idea of security doesn't even come up anymore because you know that you're okay and that essentially everything is okay. 

Renate:  I guess that's a good sentence to stop.  Everything is okay always. 

Prajna:  Yes always, even when it doesn't look like it. 

Renate:  And often it doesn't look like it and it's still okay.  Let me show your book again.  It's Edge of Grace: a Seeker’s Path to the Heart of Liberation.  Thank you for being with us Prajna. 

Prajna:  Did you want to mention how to get the book?

Renate:  You mentioned it. 

Prajna:  Okay.  It's on my website.  You can pre-order it now.  It's a prelaunch.  It's

Renate:  Yes, we will have your website underneath the interview anyway. 

Prajna:  Okay well that's how you get the book.

Renate:  Yes it's still warm.  It just came out of the press [laughing].  Thank you Prajna and thank you for watching and I will see you again soon.  Good bye.


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